Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[littlebabyjesus]

• In this instance we are talking about a contact sport, natal males have longer and denser bones than females on average and this confers a (literal!) mechanical advantage in contact sports: what sort of man anyway wants to fight women?

Ok, I'll take this part out. Assume for the sake of the hypothetical that we're discussing a martial art in which men and women do train with one another - which does happen in some martial arts: it happens in the two that I do. In any activity, physical differences between the sexes cannot be ignored, I agree, but that wasn't really what I was driving at, so let us assume that this is not at issue here.

You haven't really answered my question, though, and you've replied in a way that only seems to consider a situation where the trans person in question is mtf, which I didn't specify.

 

[mojo pixy]

No, it's not respectful to lie to someone about what they are.

Except when that's what they need to hear, maybe.

 

[Pickman's model]

Please stop poisoning the well with your dumb-ass ad hominems. Please engage with the argument I am making. Thank you.

Not so keen on discussing trans people in prison now I see, after you well and truly pissed on your argument there.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Except when that's what they need to hear, maybe.

Not being funny, if one isn't robust enough to deal with pronouns, I don't fancy their chances dealing with the lived reality of being trans, nevermind having then doing aftercare on a penile inversion.

Do you insist on referring to married cis women by their maiden names, because whatever their wishes, you reject the patriarchal system of marriage? Do you call black people coloureds because no-one truly has black skin and anyway race is a social contruct? Do you call disabled people cripples or people with learning disabilities retarded because they are perfectly good descriptive terms and why should you submit to their insistence that you use namby pamby politcally correct terms? Do you refuse to call people gay because gay means happy not homosexual? How far do you insist your beliefs take precedence over people being treated with decency and politeness?

I'm respectful enough to all women not to impose the word 'cis' on them. You have no room to speak of decency and politeness.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Ok, I'll take this part out. Assume for the sake of the hypothetical that we're discussing a martial art in which men and women do train with one another - which does happen in some martial arts: it happens in the two that I do. In any activity, physical differences between the sexes cannot be ignored, I agree, but that wasn't really what I was driving at, so let us assume that this is not at issue here.

You haven't really answered my question, though, and you've replied in a way that only seems to consider a situation where the trans person in question is mtf, which I didn't specify.

I believe I addressed 'trans men' including the unintended consequence of the latest Labour fiasco. Was there something specific? (I'm also working while I do this so apologies if I missed something).

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I believe I addressed 'trans men' including the unintended consequence of the latest Labour fiasco. Was there something specific? (I'm also working while I do this so apologies if I missed something).

I'm putting you in charge of a martial arts club (one in which men and women do train with one another) where this conflict has arisen. I am suggesting to you that none of us has the right to impose our beliefs on others in all situations. One of those situations would be the one I described, in which you need to make a decision. Another, simpler one has arisen on this thread, where you have deliberately misgendered another poster for effect. All claims to be acting courteously went down the plughole when you did that.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I'm putting you in charge of a martial arts club (one in which men and women do train with one another) where this conflict has arisen. I am suggesting to you that none of us has the right to impose our beliefs on others in all situations. One of those situations would be the one I described, in which you need to make a decision. Another, simpler one has arisen on this thread, where you have deliberately misgendered another poster for effect. All claims to be acting courteously went down the plughole when you did that.

I didn't 'misgender' for effect. I've explained why.

Apropos your post,like I said it makes a really good point and illustrates a real-life problem.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I didn't 'misgender' for effect. I've explained why.

I give you enough credit to think that you knew exactly what you were doing, first regarding the trans woman on the Vogue cover, whom you went out of your way to misgender, taking evident glee in doing so, and then soon afterwards regarding the poster here. You appeared to be on something of a roll at the time, and determined to make your point.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I give you enough credit to think that you knew exactly what you were doing, first regarding the trans woman on the Vogue cover, whom you went out of your way to misgender, taking evident glee in doing so, and then soon afterwards regarding the poster here. You appeared to be on something of a roll at the time, and determined to make your point.

You completely miss my point. It's not personal.

 

[TopCat]

You don't half sound like some UKIP pub bore bravely saying the things that aren't allowed to be said at times.

Oh no they dont.

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh no they dont.

 

[Athos]

The past participle makes the person an object rather than a subject, and implies existence of a responsible party other than the person themselves. So yeah, to me 'transgendered' seems loaded.

It's not the past participle (because there's no verb 'to transgender'); it's an adjective. The '-ed' is unnecessary, though.

 

[TopCat]

I'm putting you in charge of a martial arts club (one in which men and women do train with one another) where this conflict has arisen. I am suggesting to you that none of us has the right to impose our beliefs on others in all situations. One of those situations would be the one I described, in which you need to make a decision. Another, simpler one has arisen on this thread, where you have deliberately misgendered another poster for effect. All claims to be acting courteously went down the plughole when you did that.

Get off the dojo.

 

[smokedout]

I didn't 'misgender' for effect. I've explained why.

Apropos your post,like I said it makes a really good point and illustrates a real-life problem.

In your role as a magazine editor would you refuse to use the pronouns relating to the aquired gender of a trans musician you interviewed or an employee?

 

[TopCat]

In your role as a magazine editor would you refuse to use the pronouns relating to the aquired gender of a trans musician you interviewed or an employee?

You keep having a pop at peeps for asking questions but you do this and answer few?
It smacks of bullying.

 

[mojo pixy]

Not being funny, if one isn't robust enough to deal with pronouns, I don't fancy their chances dealing with the lived reality of being trans, nevermind having then doing aftercare on a penile inversion.

Well lucky you then, paragon of robustness

 

[smokedout]

You keep having a pop at peeps for asking questions but you do this and answer few?
It smacks of bullying.

You siding with the management TC?

 

[bimble]

Just in case people aren't aware, in response to the Young Labour women's quota being re-defined as for 'people who identify as women', a fundraiser was started 2 days ago that's got just under 10k now.
You can read their statement explaining why this matters here:
Click here to support Keep All-Women Shortlists Female! organised by Jennifer James

In response (or is it an uncanny coincidence) Lily Madigan's written a 'Motion against transphobia in the labour party' today, calling for transphobes to be kicked out of the party. It says "We further believe that trans men are men, and trans women are women and as such should have equal access with cis counterparts to stand for, and participate with, all party programmes and roles within the Party and in government. This includes but is not restricted to allowing trans women equal consideration for all-women shortlists.."

The twitter war between supporters of the crowd-funder and people shouting terf and transphobe at them is not edifying.

 

[kabbes]

Just in case people aren't aware, in response to the Young Labour women's quota being re-defined as for 'people who identify as women', a fundraiser was started 2 days ago that's got just under 10k now.
You can read their statement explaining why this matters here:
Click here to support Keep All-Women Shortlists Female! organised by Jennifer James

In response (or is it an uncanny coincidence) Lily Madigan's written a 'Motion against transphobia in the labour party' today, calling for transphobes to be kicked out of the party. It says "We further believe that trans men are men, and trans women are women and as such should have equal access with cis counterparts to stand for, and participate with, all party programmes and roles within the Party and in government. This includes but is not restricted to allowing trans women equal consideration for all-women shortlists.."

The twitter war between supporters fo the crowd-funder and people shouting terf and transphobe at them is not edifying.

Just as long as anything that is supposed to be about equality for women actually remains firmly about trans issues, I guess everybody is happy?

 

[smokedout]

Anyway found the answer, seems like Miranda Yardley is quite happy to present a trans woman as a woman in the magazine she edits and owns. Classic liberal indeed, principles fly out the window the second the bottom line might be affected.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Anyway found the answer, seems like Miranda Yardley is quite happy to present a trans woman as a woman in the magazine she edits and owns. Classic liberal indeed, principles fly out the window the second the bottom line might be affected.

TBF that article is dated 2010...It appears that Miranda's opinion on the use of pronouns has changed.

 

[smokedout]

Well now I've pointed it out they can change it to reflect the new ideology.

Although as feminist gestures go not putting bands who write songs glorifying rape and violence against women on the front cover of a magazine probably largely read by teenages boys might go a bit further then worrying about pronouns. But like I said, the bottom line is what counts.

 

[TopCat]

You siding with the management TC?

Which management? What polarisation are you trying to push?
You wanna shout Terf Cunt at Helen? Where the fuck are you coming from?

 

[smokedout]

Which management? What polarisation are you trying to push?
You wanna shout Terf Cunt at Helen? Where the fuck are you coming from?

I was referring to Miranda's role as an employer and business owner, and whether their refusal to gender people the way they want extended into their business practice.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

The TERFs attempts to influence Labour Party politics in a transphobic direction do not appear to be going well.

They’ve long ago realized that they have lost all influence on the left of the party, so their lobbying efforts have in recent times been aimed at gaining the support of the party right - not an entirely stupid tactical decision by any means, given that some on the Labour right would have connections to the New Statesman and that others on the Labour right might be tempted to support just about anything if it gave them the opportunity to oppose the Corbynites. However, with the partial exception of Jess Phillips it turns out that Labour right MPs aren’t keen on them either. Stella Creasey for instance rejected their views publicly the other day, which some of them took very badly.

Now they are raising funds to sue the Labour Party, an approach that pretty clearly indicates that they’ve given up hope of winning any policy votes for the foreseeable future and are willing to antagonize the whole party. That they are doing so for a purpose as inconsequential as making sure that a tiny number of trans women don’t make it onto an all women shortlist might seem bizarre. After all, even the most bigoted transphobes can’t seriously think that this will have any significant impact on anything given the handful of people involved, so why create enemies by dragging the party into the courts? The reason, as usual, is that it will further their relationship with the right wing press. It will give the Mail, Sun, Times, Telegraph etc fodder for a large number of scare stories about Corbyn, Labour and trans people, so they will be happy as pigs in shit and the TERFs care more about hurting trans people than any other issue so they don’t give a shit what the broader consequences of their actions are.

 

[bimble]

TERFs care more about hurting trans people than any other issue so they don’t give a shit what the broader consequences of their actions are.

You are an idiot Nigel, so blinkered you can’t see a thing outside your tiny narrow perspective.

 

[MochaSoul]

Just as long as anything that is supposed to be about equality for women actually remains firmly about trans issues, I guess everybody is happy?

I'm just surprised all of the brogressive types who hector those of us thinking of the potential consequences of such policies never think of ceding mens places to trans women. It's women who will have to "trust" that the transgender women who climb into the pulpits that have been so hard to win don't think like this one:



Edited to remove quote from another conversation

 

[MochaSoul]

I'm just surprised all of the brogressive types who hector those of us thinking of the potential consequences of such policies never think of ceding mens places to trans women. It's women who will have to "trust" that the transgender women who climb into the pulpits that have been so hard to win don't think like this one:



Edited to remove quote from another conversation

And I'm not even going to go into Lily Madigan's latest motion which she is urging all CLPs to adopt and which, depending on the definition of transphobia, would have any and every radical feminist kicked out of the Labour Party. Soon this saga will need it's own thread especially as people as Jon Lansman (who I've just voted for the NEC) seem to think the party would easily detect abuse while people like Clive Lewis openly mocks women worried about the turn of events

 

[MochaSoul]

Shut up Nigel Irritable . If you so much as look at that link you'll see the majority of the donations are £5 and £10. Not the trappings of a major and powerful lobby with wealthy friends. Yes, the Sun has contacted the organisers for a comment and they were turned down flat.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I'm putting you in charge of a martial arts club (one in which men and women do train with one another) where this conflict has arisen. I am suggesting to you that none of us has the right to impose our beliefs on others in all situations. One of those situations would be the one I described, in which you need to make a decision. Another, simpler one has arisen on this thread, where you have deliberately misgendered another poster for effect. All claims to be acting courteously went down the plughole when you did that.

The problem is though no matter how you dress up these hypothetical situations it’s done with the intent of getting them to concede a political point that is central to their position.