Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[SpookyFrank]

I do notice Frank, and this isn't having a go I realise you're doing your best, is that you've talked a lot and very specifically about what a man *isn't*

But not much about what a man *is*

Too many different levels on which to answer that, and none where I would feel able to do so coherently.

Boy children grow up knowing they should become men, but are never told what that actually entails beyond a bunch of vague, arbitrary and often self-contradictory expectations.

 

[spanglechick]

The debate is becoming in danger of being misrepresented and misframed as being one of men vs women, especially here of late.

The majority of women and within that group, the majority of feminists that I know and am aware of, view trans people as a subset of their trans gender. I've felt increasingly reluctant to talk about that openly online, in part due to a sincere desire of not wanting to dismiss what other women are saying (because many women who are not or are less trans inclusive seem to have a particularly distressing history either at the hands of male violence or[and] of a troubled personal relationship to their own gender, especially vis the societal expectations that I never felt any pressure to conform to. This has changed as the debate has gone on. I've heard a lot that has made me understand these women differently, and while my views on trans acceptance haven't materially changed, I'm less willing to womansplain to my *ahem* sisters.

The other odd thing is the framing of trans inclusionary debate as misogyny. Trans acceptance (especially ftm) is overwhelmingly Less accepted point blank by men, as part of the toxic masculinity that also creates greater (male) homophobia among men. Urban is somewhat progressive, but there is a very small cohort of men posting here largely to gleefully troll anyone with a pro trans point - especially if they are women.

The other limiting factor though, is the hyperbole and shameless emotive provocation that the debate seems to invoke in its most fervent participants. People on both sides disingenuously laying traps for others, claiming to be abused and so on. It makes moderate debate completely impossible. A moderated GRA seems like it would have been worth discussing... but the debate on both sides isn't interested in compromise. It's enormously upsetting all round.

 

[Athos]

And what would you do specifically to try and adapt?

E.g. remember not to refer to them as she. I think that's probably it.

 

[bimble]

People on both sides disingenuously laying traps for others, claiming to be abused and so on.

Can you explain what you mean here please? Do you just mean people accusing others of being hateful to them?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I’ve responded directly to your deeply stupid views once already today. Your two comments since have just been repetitions of the same dishonest posturing. In the unlikely event that you ever say something of interest I might respond to you again, but I feel no need to respond to each and every statement by every bigot on this thread. I’m not here to have a polite discussion with you or to humor your transphobia. You should really let go of this apparent need for my attention.

Do you talk like this to people irl? I imagine you’re put on your arse fairly regularly.

 

[mojo pixy]

As far as the men are concerned I've come to the conclusion they don't really want to talk about it.

I've asked the dudes pontificating what it means to be a woman several times what it means to be a man but there have been no takers so far.

So I'll ask the men on here again :

Men: what makes a man?

Someone Assigned Female at Birth, can they be A Man?

This is an area of the discussion we haven't really heard, it's all framed as AFAB women complaining that trans women are really men playing pretendy dress-up. Where are the AMAB men complaining that there are loads of women pretending to be men? Would anyone care about that argument anyway? Is there anything about being an AMAB man and experiencing childhood being treated and socialised as a boy rather than a girl, that makes true man-ness unavailable to a trans man? Of course the reproduction issue isn't an issue, but then it isn't for every woman either, or even every AFAB woman, so what's left beyond that? Is there anything that makes a man, which a trans man could not access, in the way it's being argued trans women can not access things that make a woman?

Simplistic language attempted on purpose because for me there are manifold unresolved issues and I want to avoid building in assumptions to the questions.

This whole debate is centering on women and femininity, like femininity is some holy grail and if only we could settle what it means to be a woman and who gets to be called woman and make sure women are happy about it all then everything will be ok.

It seems as if half the debate is going unhad.

I'd genuinely like to hear what those leaning towards trans-exclusivity feel about trans men. Especially what trans-exclusive tendency men (do we have any of those? Bet we do) think about women presenting as men and claiming male pronouns.

I can't add more because I don't really care any more if people want to be men or women or what they want to be called. I think I did care a bit, even as recently as the first day of this thread, but by now I'm feeling the apathy more than ever. For which I think I'm grateful, on reflection.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

E.g. remember not to refer to them as she. I think that's probably it.

But you see this is the problem. Isn't it?

If you are *subconsciously* treating a transman as a woman that'll come out in the way you behave towards them. It'll be recognised (correctly) as gender specific behaviour - you say you treat men and women the same, but admit sometimes you may subconsciously not, thus belying the fact that you don't actually see them as men.

Using 'he" in this instance would just be humouring and be picked up as such.

Now, you say you broadly treat men and women equal, but what if it's so subconscious in your behaviour that you don't notice you don't? What good would calling someone "he" do, when your behaviour points you to be hiding your true feelings?

 

[Athos]

But you see this is the problem. Isn't it?

If you are *subconsciously* treating a transman as a woman that'll come out in the way you behave towards them. It'll be recognised (correctly) as gender specific behaviour - you say you treat men and women the same, but admit sometimes you may subconsciously not, thus belying the fact that you don't actually see them as men.

Using 'he" in this instance would just be humouring and be picked up as such.

Now, you say you broadly treat men and women equal, but what if it's so subconscious in your behaviour that you don't notice you don't? What good would calling someone "he" do, when your behaviour points you to be hiding your true feelings?

I can only try to overcome my subconsciousness/ socialisation. Accepting I won't always be successful. It's a way of trying to minimise upset to them. Not sure why that's a problem, really.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Not trying to upset them is not a problem. The problem comes from knowing the treatment, despite the pronouns, is still misgendered.

I'm not trying to be cruel or anything but it's impossible to be self aware all the time. This doesn't apply to only you but everyone.

 

[Athos]

Not trying to upset them is not a problem. The problem comes from knowing the treatment despite the pronouns is still misgendered.

I'm not trying to be cruel or anything but it's impossible to be self aware all the time. This doesn't apply to you but everyone.

What's the alternative? How is it better?

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

What's the alternative? How is it better?

I dunno. Honestly.

As an immediate response it might work, but then also it might not. I don't know if anyone was watching big brother, but India was constantly talking about how she wasn't seen as a "real woman" despite everyone doing their best to use the right pronouns.

At one point she had a go at one of the males because he wouldn't consider her a viable partner.

Another contestant told her that everyone sees her as a real woman but being completely oblivious to the fact that noone born female is ever reassured by other females "we really do see you as a woman.. Honest". It just isn't done that way.

That very statement is paradoxical in and of itself and caused further anguish.

I don't know what the solution to that problem is. But there ain't a short term one.

Socialising boys and girls the same might be a start, but we're a long way from that.

 

[spanglechick]

Can you explain what you mean here please? Do you just mean people accusing others of being hateful to them?

Yep. The hyperbole from some individuals on both sides is exhausting, irritating, and makes moderate debate impossible.

 

[elbows]

The debate is becoming in danger of being misrepresented and misframed as being one of men vs women, especially here of late.

The majority of women and within that group, the majority of feminists that I know and am aware of, view trans people as a subset of their trans gender. I've felt increasingly reluctant to talk about that openly online, in part due to a sincere desire of not wanting to dismiss what other women are saying (because many women who are not or are less trans inclusive seem to have a particularly distressing history either at the hands of male violence or[and] of a troubled personal relationship to their own gender, especially vis the societal expectations that I never felt any pressure to conform to. This has changed as the debate has gone on. I've heard a lot that has made me understand these women differently, and while my views on trans acceptance haven't materially changed, I'm less willing to womansplain to my *ahem* sisters.

The other odd thing is the framing of trans inclusionary debate as misogyny. Trans acceptance (especially ftm) is overwhelmingly Less accepted point blank by men, as part of the toxic masculinity that also creates greater (male) homophobia among men. Urban is somewhat progressive, but there is a very small cohort of men posting here largely to gleefully troll anyone with a pro trans point - especially if they are women.

It's been interesting, I feel like I have learnt some things, even if some of those things are troubling the picture is at least more nuanced.

I've never been entirely convinced that there are less trans acceptance issues from women than men. This stuff seems to work at numerous different levels and whilst most of the most obvious, loud and even violent non-acceptance comes from men, I dont want to get the wrong idea about whether some potentially fairly widespread exclusionary attitudes are held by plenty of women. It might just be less visible, for reasons including all the usual reasons why womens voices may be drowned out.

I can understand why some aspects of the whole 'TERF vs' thing might leave some wanting to reclaim labels from negative use, but I really dont get it when it comes to TERF - its an acronym not a word, and I dont understand how it can be reclaimed in a decent and positive way when two of its letters stand for trans-exclusionary.

 

[Red Cat]

The debate is becoming in danger of being misrepresented and misframed as being one of men vs women, especially here of late.

The majority of women and within that group, the majority of feminists that I know and am aware of, view trans people as a subset of their trans gender. I've felt increasingly reluctant to talk about that openly online, in part due to a sincere desire of not wanting to dismiss what other women are saying (because many women who are not or are less trans inclusive seem to have a particularly distressing history either at the hands of male violence or[and] of a troubled personal relationship to their own gender, especially vis the societal expectations that I never felt any pressure to conform to. This has changed as the debate has gone on. I've heard a lot that has made me understand these women differently, and while my views on trans acceptance haven't materially changed, I'm less willing to womansplain to my *ahem* sisters.

The other odd thing is the framing of trans inclusionary debate as misogyny. Trans acceptance (especially ftm) is overwhelmingly Less accepted point blank by men, as part of the toxic masculinity that also creates greater (male) homophobia among men. Urban is somewhat progressive, but there is a very small cohort of men posting here largely to gleefully troll anyone with a pro trans point - especially if they are women.

The other limiting factor though, is the hyperbole and shameless emotive provocation that the debate seems to invoke in its most fervent participants. People on both sides disingenuously laying traps for others, claiming to be abused and so on. It makes moderate debate completely impossible. A moderated GRA seems like it would have been worth discussing... but the debate on both sides isn't interested in compromise. It's enormously upsetting all round.

What I'd like is a discussion that people can come to without having to know what they think already, without having to provide the 'evidence', and without the framing of others words in terms that act as straightjackets. Otherwise, even when it's relatively polite, it can feel like a competition, not a conversation.

 

[Treacle Toes]

It's been interesting, I feel like I have learnt some things, even if some of those things are troubling the picture is at least more nuanced.

I've never been entirely convinced that there are less trans acceptance issues from women than men. This stuff seems to work at numerous different levels and whilst most of the most obvious, loud and even violent non-acceptance comes from men, I dont want to get the wrong idea about whether some potentially fairly widespread exclusionary attitudes are held by plenty of women. It might just be less visible, for reasons including all the usual reasons why womens voices may be drowned out.

I can understand why some aspects of the whole 'TERF vs' thing might leave some wanting to reclaim labels from negative use, but I really dont get it when it comes to TERF - its an acronym not a word, and I dont understand how it can be reclaimed in a decent and positive way when two of its letters stand for trans-exclusionary.

Well apparently not...

I've had to read this a few times to be honest.

 

[elbows]

I've had to read this a few times to be honest.

I can sort of get my head round it and empathise with chunks of it. But it cant escape falling into the realm of 'dangerous conflation' in my book. We're doomed to quagmire if we cant remove the artificial joins between some of these things, just as we are if we dismiss all the parts out of hand because of the way they've been welded together.

 

[8ball]

It’s simply about ticking all the right-on boxes without thinking any of it through.

Yep could be. Which says something about how the background culture has moved, perhaps.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well apparently not...

I've had to read this a few times to be honest.

not surprised, the background's a foul colour

 

[8ball]

Point of order: many people who identify as non-binary would be placed in the 'female' category by those determined to ensure that everyone is one thing or the other, so the idea of 'non-binary' being nothing but a free pass for men to enter women-only spaces doesn't stack up.

I dunno. It means you can put on a pink tie and boom, you're in.
I can understand why women feel it undermines their space.

 

[8ball]

If they're non-binary why do they want to come to a women's workshop?

It could include very young people who might be on an early part of their journey to transitioning. It means trans people are welcome without having to be solidly transitioned. I get your objections, I just see what they're trying to do too. I think.

 

[8ball]

And tbh there's not much talk of trans men on either side. This definition that a woman is someone with "female reproductive potential", what about the trans men who have that but don't want to be a woman, they should just sit down and shut up?

I think there is not much talk of trans women because there are much fewer of them and men do not consider them a threat (afaik).

 

[8ball]

As far as the men are concerned I've come to the conclusion they don't really want to talk about it.

I've asked the dudes pontificating what it means to be a woman several times what it means to be a man but there have been no takers so far....

Men: what makes a man?

I'm not aware of having pontificated on what makes a woman at any point, but the "what makes a man" thing currently seems to something also going through a bit of flux, in terms of gender expectations if not in terms of biology.

However, depending on other factors like socioeconomic bracket, degree of social power etc. I think being a man leaves more options open for breaking rules (albeit some men are threatened by the most minor of rule breaking).

I was never terribly good at being a typical boy, so I've really felt part of "team bloke". It's fortunate that "team bloke" is optional for men, though. I was once told I must be gay because I didn't like football.

Not sure whether making this about men could derail things too far...

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I think there is not much talk of trans women because there are much fewer of them and men do not consider them a threat (afaik).

The equivalent would be spaces they’re excluded from (or not) so maybe there’s not a mad dash to join snooty golf clubs or the Freemasons.

 

[8ball]

The equivalent would be spaces they’re excluded from (or not) so maybe there’s not a mad dash to join snooty golf clubs or the Freemasons.

It's a good point. I'm not aware of whether that's actually been tested.

edit: on Googling it seems it has been tested. Also, there's the case of these people's acceptance or otherwise of trans women who were members before transitioning. I think it's only partly relevant because these are institutions based around excluding people generally in the first place.

On reflection, considering the case of trans men it does make it feel more personally relevant how a trans man wasn't socialised on "my side of the fence". That fence is pretty high when you're very young. Or it was when I was growing up, anyway.

 

[elbows]

I've never been entirely convinced that there are less trans acceptance issues from women than men. This stuff seems to work at numerous different levels and whilst most of the most obvious, loud and even violent non-acceptance comes from men, I dont want to get the wrong idea about whether some potentially fairly widespread exclusionary attitudes are held by plenty of women. It might just be less visible, for reasons including all the usual reasons why womens voices may be drowned out.

I went looking for primitive surveys as a starting point to understanding the scale of this better.

I've only found one so far, and it was a survey of under 2500 Sky customers a few years back and only asked a couple of rather specific questions. So I'm only using it for initial clues.

Poll VI tabs - TG.pdf

To what extent, if at all, do you agree or disagree with the following statements: "Clinical treatment to change a person's gender is morally wrong"

Agree (combined): Female 14% Male 25%
Disagree (combined): Female 54% Male 43%
Neither agree nor disagree: Female 23% Male 27%
Dont know: Female 2% Male 1%
Prefer not to say: Female 7% Male 4%

To what extent, if at all, do you agree or disagree with the following statements: "The NHS should pay for clinical treatment to change a person’s gender where desired by a patient and deemed appropriate by doctors"

Agree (combined): Female 29% Male 21%
Disagree (combined): Female 44% Male 60%
Neither agree nor disagree: Female 18% Male 14%
Dont know: Female 3% Male 1%
Prefer not to say: Female 6% Male 3%

I have simplified these results for the sake of brevity and the full results are also broken down by region, age, political party voting and 'experian mosaic'.

 

[8ball]

Oh, I just remembered.

We had a trans man in work several years ago. The only one I'm aware of having met, as it happens.
He was a bit eccentric but very likeable and I didn't find out he was a trans man until after he left the company (a very small number at the company knew before this).

I remember quite a few women being dubious about him for reasons they couldn't put their finger on. Most of the men just thought of him as a funny nutter. Though a lot of men weren't terribly surprised when they found out about his history whereas I was very surprised.

 

[campanula]

I think there is not much talk of trans women because there are much fewer of them and men do not consider them a threat (afaik).

I tend to think that transmen are largely silent having been previously socialised as women, with all the self-effacement, unwillingness to shout out, take up space, be loud and proud...ie. the usual modest, demure compliance...which mitigates against ensuring their demands take precedence. Put such limiting social constraints on people who are already feeling anxious, different, alone...and it is unsurprising that transmen have become a largely invisible presence within the noisy trans rights demands from MtF (who, of course, have not been compromised by a lifetime of deference).

 

[8ball]

I tend to think that transmen are largely silent having been previously socialised as women, with all the self-effacement, unwillingness to shout out, take up space, be loud and proud...ie. the usual modest, demure compliance...which mitigates against ensuring their demands take precedence. Put such limiting social constraints on people who are already feeling anxious, different, alone...and it is unsurprising that transmen have become a largely invisible presence within the noisy trans rights demands from MtF (who, of course, have not been compromised by a lifetime of deference).

Maybe in terms of organising as trans men as a group that makes sense, but doesn't fit the personality of the one trans man I've met. Modest demure, compliance wasn't a big thing for him.

Not for the majority of women I know either, to be fair.

 

[campanula]

Maybe in terms of organising as trans men as a group that makes sense, but doesn't fit the personality of the one trans man I've met. Modest demure, compliance wasn't a big thing for him.

Not for the majority of women I know either, to be fair.

It is an ongoing struggle, 8Ball - however much we like to think we have transcended our societal pressures, they are always there...and as a (much) older woman (2nd wave feminist) than many of the media savvy and apparently confident generation (who have never known anything but the neo-liberal consensus), I feel my internal contradictions very keenly. Although given the ever increasing list of psycho-social disorders and dis-ease, I suspect such confidence to be quite literally skin deep and the latent powers of capital are still holding us in obedient thrall.

Anyway - time to cut and run - the day is slipping away and I need to make my first New year allotment reccie.

 

[Athos]

I dunno. Honestly.

As an immediate response it might work, but then also it might not. I don't know if anyone was watching big brother, but India was constantly talking about how she wasn't seen as a "real woman" despite everyone doing their best to use the right pronouns.

At one point she had a go at one of the males because he wouldn't consider her a viable partner.

Another contestant told her that everyone sees her as a real woman but being completely oblivious to the fact that noone born female is ever reassured by other females "we really do see you as a woman.. Honest". It just isn't done that way.

That very statement is paradoxical in and of itself and caused further anguish.

I don't know what the solution to that problem is. But there ain't a short term one.

Socialising boys and girls the same might be a start, but we're a long way from that.

I agree. I try to do my bit towards the later, with my kids and neices and nephews. But in some respects I feel like we're going the other way. I find that depressing for my daughter's.