Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Red Cat]

So I guess I'm like many women. I haven't read the books on feminist theory, my views on feminism are based on my experience/the experience of people I know.

I've spent the last 25 years studying/working in areas that are generally perceived as male. I've dealt with/seen all kinds of shit on the way. As have most women I know.

So I can't even begin to express how utterly fucking annoying it is when people like Nigel Irritable tell me how this works and how I should be acting.

Nigel Irritable, you are a fucking disgrace. I guess at least you've united the women on here though...

(And if you paid attention to such things, you might wonder why/how this has happened and why people on 'your' side think you're a fucking liability. Actually listening to other people rather than always knowing best would a start. )

Yeh, I haven't felt this much of a feminist for some time. Having kids made be very aware of how much my oppression is linked to raising children and unpaid labour, but fuck me, the assumptions, the lack of curiosity about what women think demonstrated on here.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Point of order: many people who identify as non-binary would be placed in the 'female' category by those determined to ensure that everyone is one thing or the other, so the idea of 'non-binary' being nothing but a free pass for men to enter women-only spaces doesn't stack up.

 

[MochaSoul]

I'm just gonna interject here to say that I hate the term "progressive". It's such a bullshit meaningless term and a huge exercise in virtue signalling - which a year back I thought was just hyperbolic term, but now I think virtue signalling does exist as a political thing.

"I'm a progressive"... Yeah? Well where are you progressing to? Cuz you can progress into a ditch or into dog shit and ain't nobody that wants to go there.

Whenever I hear the term "let's do the *PROGRESSIVE* thing" it makes me run a mile. Usually ill thought out, mantra repeating bollocks follows.

LOL I think "Progressive" is American-Democratese for "Let's turn a little bit social democrat, but only a little bit, while fooling the young, the poor and the virtual signalling classes we're going full on socialist"

Yeh, I haven't felt this much of a feminist for some time. Having kids made be very aware of how much my oppression is linked to raising children and unpaid labour, but fuck me, the assumptions, the lack of curiosity about what women think demonstrated on here.

This is a hard one. Sometimes I just get tired. Last weekend I started a line of thinking based on a brief stint at a women's only college where I met loads of women with all sorts of problematic backgrounds from domestic violence, sexual abuse, having been in prison, yada. When a pointed question [quite pertinent] about it came [from a man, of course] I suddenly became exhausted. I had wanted to get somewhere else on the conversation and it just became daunting to have to go through a lot of typing on too emotional a level just to get to that point. The best analogy I can find that explains what I felt is explaining racism to white people who don't want to see it. You just can't be bothered sometimes and sometimes that is for a long time. There are things they won't get without a lot of words and the very prospect of having to explain saps all of the energy out of me. It doesn't mean I'm not capable of it but just definitely not at that moment.

 

[Athos]

You already agree sex is based on reproductive class, what does identity have to do with it?

Identity and sex are different bases on which people can choose to define gender.

 

[Pickman's model]

Point of order: many people who identify as non-binary would be placed in the 'female' category by those determined to ensure that everyone is one thing or the other, so the idea of 'non-binary' being nothing but a free pass for men to enter women-only spaces doesn't stack up.

Point of information: points of order relate to conduct of the meeting, e.g. move to vote, quorum count

 

[bimble]

I did feel a bit of a twit using the word 'progressive' yesterday so what's a better alternative for saying 'the sort of change we want to see' ?

 

[Athos]

I did feel a bit of a twit using the word 'progressive' yesterday so what's a better alternative for saying 'the sort of change we want to see' ?

It might help to be more explicit. Because I suspect that some of the most significant difference between people on this issue is their aims. Some prioritise the end of gender categories, whilst others prioritise freedom to find a comfortable place within gender categories. (There may be an element of balancing short term versus long term aims.)

 

[MochaSoul]

Point of order: many people who identify as non-binary would be placed in the 'female' category by those determined to ensure that everyone is one thing or the other, so the idea of 'non-binary' being nothing but a free pass for men to enter women-only spaces doesn't stack up.

But not all of them. Are you still talking about the bike ride?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Are you still talking about the bike ride?

I think mountains enough have been made from that particular molehill already.

 

[weepiper]

Point of order: many people who identify as non-binary would be placed in the 'female' category by those determined to ensure that everyone is one thing or the other, so the idea of 'non-binary' being nothing but a free pass for men to enter women-only spaces doesn't stack up.

If they're non-binary why do they want to come to a women's workshop?

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

I think mountains enough have been made from that particular molehill already.

What's your perspective on micro-agressions? (where the numerous micro small together things end up forming the macro)

Do you accept that perhaps the small informs the large?

Is this a molehill? :

 

[MochaSoul]

I think mountains enough have been made from that particular molehill already.

Why do we have to be mother all of the time. How come men are never "expected" to "show solidarity"?

 

[smmudge]

Aargh... I really don't want to sound unkind or personal but this is so typical of men. You know a trans woman or two, you don't know what to do with them "Let's lump them on the women." Never a word about what may happen to trans men btw.

That's a really weird thing to say about people. Trans people aren't like babies or animals or something.

And tbh there's not much talk of trans men on either side. This definition that a woman is someone with "female reproductive potential", what about the trans men who have that but don't want to be a woman, they should just sit down and shut up?

 

[SpookyFrank]

What's your perspective on micro-agressions? (where the micro small things end up being the macro)

Do you accept that perhaps the small informs the large?

Is this a molehill :

No, I don't even think it's a microagression. I think it's macroagression; something done for no purpose other than to upset people.

But lets not conflate that with people making a genuine effort to be sensitive and inclusive and, at worst, fudging the wording a little bit.

 

[MochaSoul]

That's a really weird thing to say about people. Trans people aren't like babies or animals or something.

So why don't they organise as trangesnder? Why don't they demand transrights instead with the added value of including trans men?

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

And tbh there's not much talk of trans men on either side.

As far as the men are concerned I've come to the conclusion they don't really want to talk about it.

I've asked the dudes pontificating what it means to be a woman several times what it means to be a man but there have been no takers so far.

If one thinks a woman is a person with female reproductive capacity going about their daily business without any other judgement, then there's not much else to say about transmen from that perspective.

However it's much easier for all the dudes here to give transmen AND transwomen and non-binary issues to the women to deal with.

Lest we might discover what it is that *really* makes a man.

So I'll ask the men on here again :

Men: what makes a man?

 

[SpookyFrank]

So why don't they organise as trangesnder? Why don't they demand transrights instead with the added value of including trans men?

Do they not?

'They' of course being a disparate group of people with no single party line, political methodology or secret volcano lair.

 

[SpookyFrank]

However it's much easier for all the dudes here to give transmen AND transwomen and non-binary issues to the women to deal with.

Wait, are men dominating the issue or offloading it onto women to deal with?

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Wait, are men dominating the issue or offloading it onto women to deal with?

Men dominate the issue BY offloading it onto women and then telling women they're doing it wrong.

A bit like a CEO might do with his workers.


You wanna answer the question?

What is it that's makes you a man, Frank?

 

[Athos]

As far as the men are concerned I've come to the conclusion they don't really want to talk about it.

I've asked the dudes pontificating what it means to be a woman several times what it means to be a man but there have been no takers so far.

If one thinks a woman is a person with female reproductive capacity going about their daily business without any other judgement, then there's not much else to say about transmen from that perspective.

However it's much easier for all the dudes here to give transmen AND transwomen and non-binary issues to the women to deal with.

Lest we might discover what it is that *really* makes a man.

So I'll ask the men on here again :

Men: what makes a man?

Ok, I'll have a go, in good faith.

I consider myself to be a man because I'm an adult human male, and not because of any gender identity. But, for all intents and purposes I'm happy to treat others as a man if that's how they'd like me to. In reality that's little more than not 'misgendering' them, as I try not to treat people differently according to sex, anyway (accepting that there's likely some unconscious bias as a result of how I've been socialised).

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

for all intents and purposes I'm happy to treat others as a man if that's how they'd like me to. In reality that's little more than not 'misgendering' them, as I try not to treat people differently according to sex, anyway

This is also I'm good faith. I genuinely interested to hear from the guys on this one. I don't know if they ever talk about it. Women do *all the time*.

Two follow on questions:

How would one "treat" a man In accordance with sex? What does that mean?

(accepting that there's likely some unconscious bias as a result of how I've been socialised).

That's cool and all. In a situation where you met a transman and became consciously aware they were female, is it possible then that you would end up subconsciously treating them like a woman anyway as your socialisation kicks in?

 

[SpookyFrank]

What is it that's makes you a man, Frank?

What makes me a man is the fact that that's what people assume I am based on a bunch of arbitrary criteria. I don't identify with idealised male or masculine traits but I have to admit that I probably exhibit lots of them in various ways, much as I might try not to.

I would openly describe myself as non-binary but for three main reasons; firstly I'm a shy and anxious person and I don't like to draw attention to myself or do anything which might mean I have to explain myself to random strangers, secondly I don't like the idea of implying that other people are adequately defined by binary notions of gender but not me because I'm different, and thirdly because I have to accept that people perceive me as a man and might therefore be uncomfortable with my presence in certain spaces and not upsetting other people is more important to me than being included in stuff that I really don't need to be incuded in.

People who do identify as non-binary often have coherent and compelling reasons for doing so, this is all just my personal response to gender stuff.

 

[comrade spurski]

Yes, I understand that; hence why my replies have always been courteous even where I've had abuse hurled at me on here.

That is simply a lie.
Continuously calling people "he" who have said they wish to be called "she" does not equate to your "replies have always been courteous." It shows a staggering ignorance regarding the feelings of others and a huge amount of arrogance.

 

[SpookyFrank]

As for trans men, speaking as someone born inside the 'male' category I can see all too clearly that it's not that great over here, it should not be a source of pride or identity being here and if anyone else feels that they belong in this category with me then it is not my place to tell them they can't be, even if there was anything for me to gain by doing so which there isn't.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Ok nice one.

Some follow up questions for you too:

I have to admit that I probably exhibit lots of them in various ways, much as I might try not to.

Why do you think it is you exhibit some "masculine" traits? Can you give examples.

I would openly describe myself as non-binary but for three main reasons; firstly I'm a shy and anxious person

What is it about being shy and anxious that makes a man non-binary?

Isn't this just stereotypes?

I have to accept that people perceive me as a man and might therefore be uncomfortable

What is it that makes people percieve you as a man. Apart from discomfort how do others, including other men, respond to that perception?

Is it mainly a positive experience or negative?

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

As for trans men, speaking as someone born inside the 'male' category I can see all too clearly that it's not that great over here, it should not be a source of pride or identity being here and if anyone else feels that they belong in this category with me then it is not my place to tell them they can't be, even if there was anything for me to gain by doing so which there isn't.

Last one:

What do you think identifying into the "man" category entails?

 

[Athos]

This is also I'm good faith. I genuinely interested to hear from the guys on this one. I don't know if they ever talk about it. Women do *all the time*.

Two follow on questions:

How would one "treat" a man In accordance with sex? What does that mean?



That's cool and all. In a situation where you met a transman and became consciously aware they were female, is it possible then that you would end up subconsciously treating them like a woman anyway as your socialisation kicks in?

As I said, in practice, it'd not mean much more than using the correct pronouns. Because, as a man, I don't have as many sex based concerns; I don't have to guard men only spaces for safety. I don't think the two situations are comparable, really.

I think it's almost inevitable that my socialising would kick in. But I'd try to be mindful of that, and consciously adapt.

 

[SpookyFrank]

What is it about being shy and anxious that makes a man non-binary?

Isn't this just stereotypes?

I meant that I'm too shy to go around explaining to people what 'non-binary' is. I don't think of shyness as a stereotypically male or female trait, although my behaviour and personality would most likely be described and perceived differently if I appeared to be female.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

I do notice Frank, and this isn't having a go I realise you're doing your best, is that you've talked a lot and very specifically about what a man *isn't*

But not much about what a man *is*

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

I think it's almost inevitable that my socialising would kick in. But I'd try to be mindful of that, and consciously adapt.

And what would you do specifically to try and adapt?