Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Athos]

But it's not the only evidence is it? The truth is no-ones knows whether there is a biological basis for transgenderism, including you, but there is growing evidence to support it. Hanging millions of transgender people out to dry and the basis of a scientific hunch that it's all to do with patriarchy strikes me as a pretty closed minded.

There's a generic component of schizophrenia. That doesn't mean that what a sufferer believes is true.

 

[smokedout]

I couldn't agree more.

Of course it wouldn't. But the consequences would be vastly different, because gender is a socialised factor.

And who knows what those consequences would be? But the consequences now are that 5% of biological women born with congenital adrenal hyperplasia end up transgender, whatever the complex mix of biology and socialisation that creates this. And those people are not instigators of the gender binary they are victims of it. So to do anything other than support them to live in a way that feels tolerable strikes me as pretty inhumane.

 

[bimble]

My ring finger is longer than my index finger AND I have gender disphoria. Co incidence?

I. think. not.

Omg me too but you know, there are debates ongoing.. My loon uncle, a ‘geneticist’ , looked at my fingers once and told everyone confidently that I’d turn out gay because testosterone in the womb.

 

[weepiper]

Omg me too but you know, there are debates ongoing.. My loon uncle, a ‘geneticist’ , looked at my fingers once and told everyone confidently that I’d turn out gay because testosterone in the womb.

Hey. Mine too

 

[Wilf]

Omg me too but you know, there are debates ongoing.. My loon uncle, a ‘geneticist’ , looked at my fingers once and told everyone confidently that I’d turn out gay because testosterone in the womb.

My eyes are not great at the moment and I read that as Toblerone in the womb.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Omg me too but you know, there are debates ongoing.. My loon uncle, a ‘geneticist’ , looked at my fingers once and told everyone confidently that I’d turn out gay because testosterone in the womb.

Weird innit. Quoth my dad "no wonder you're a tomboy"

 

[bimble]

Load of old cobblers though the finger thing .. right?

 

[8ball]

Load of old cobblers though the finger thing .. right?

There are correlations if you look at enough data, but in terms of making predictions about a baby based on the length of their fingers, yeah, it's cobblers.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

What would that actually mean in a truly genderless world?

This contains some ideas.

Judith Lorber ‘Imagining a World without Gender’

 

[Pickman's model]

This contains some ideas.

Judith Lorber ‘Imagining a World without Gender’

So it does.

 

[Jonti]

Sanctions and Transgression (as a negative act drawing disapproval and punishment, at least) would also need to be gone for a ''genderless society'' to really happen, wouldn't they?

Would they? Why?

fwiw I think gender (as in the attributes and expectations laid on one by others on account of one's sex) is as ancient as the human race, and will always be with us. "Genderless" would just mean a relaxed attitude towards "transgressors", and more freedom of expression for the individual.

 

[smokedout]

Load of old cobblers though the finger thing .. right?

I don't think it's controversial that finger length ratios correlate with levels of in utero testosterone. What can be determined from this is still being examined.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

AH HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH!



Fukkin 'ell.

 

[smokedout]

This contains some ideas.

Judith Lorber ‘Imagining a World without Gender’

Not much materialism in that is there? Just rampant speculation and reaffirmation of neoliberal values.

If we can assume nonassortment by other invidious categories, such as racial ethnic group, people would be hired on the basis of their credentials, experience, interviewing skills, and connections. The salary scales and prestige value of occupations and professions depend on the various kinds of social assessments, just as they do now, but the positions that pay best and are valued most are not monopolized by any one type of person. Science is done by scientists, teaching by teachers, cultural production by writers, artists, musicians, dancers, singers, actors, and media producers. The beliefs and values and technologies of the time and place govern the content.

 

[smokedout]

AH HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH!



Fukkin 'ell.

Did you bother to read the link? There seems to be a real resistance to scientific evidence in this discussion despite the call for an honest evidence based debate.

 

[smokedout]

Peer reviewed papers get laughed at and dismissed, bollocks from The Sun and Mail are treated as sacrosant.

 

[bimble]

I read it, it’s interesting the sorts of things they sought to find correlations with. I would not have helped the stats for long ring finger = good at sports and or spacial reasoning.

 

[8ball]

I read it, it’s interesting the sorts of things they sought to find correlations with. I would not have helped the stats for long ring finger = good at sports and or spacial reasoning.

Me neither, but these things are generally correlated over large numbers of people.
Figuring out what the correlations mean is tricky, though. The article discusses this a little.

For Psychology Today, I think it's not bad.

 

[kabbes]

Seek correlations and ye shall find...

15 Insane Things That Correlate With Each Other

Why not find your own? Hours of fun for all the family:

Discover a correlation

ETA: Ooh, I just found this worrying 97% correlation...

Divorce rate in Virginia correlates with Murders by blunt object

 

[8ball]

Seek correlations and ye shall find...

15 Insane Things That Correlate With Each Other

Why not find your own? Hours of fun for all the family:

Discover a correlation

Such things are fun if you're into that, but they're funny because of the lack of relatability to known mechanisms and processes, and just being a result of 'torturing the data'.

 

[bimble]

Hormones are definitely interesting though.

But whilst we're on the physical dimension, here's something short and simple and to the point:
Some basic questions about sex and gender for progressives

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Seek correlations and ye shall find...

15 Insane Things That Correlate With Each Other

Why not find your own? Hours of fun for all the family:

Discover a correlation

I was about to post that.

Glad you did.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I read it, it’s interesting the sorts of things they sought to find correlations with. I would not have helped the stats for long ring finger = good at sports and or spacial reasoning.

Fact is, as well, that we are sexed based on our reproductive class, not our fingers or neurology(!!!)

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Not much materialism in that is there? Just rampant speculation and reaffirmation of neoliberal values.

It's an interesting piece. There's plenty of work Lorber has done I don't disagree with. But I'm not a black and white thinking individual.

 

[8ball]

I was about to post that.

Glad you did.

"Number of people who died falling into a pool" correlates with "films Nicolas Cage appeared in".

 

[kabbes]

Such things are fun if you're into that, but they're funny because of the lack of relatability to known mechanisms and processes, and just being a result of 'torturing the data'.

I think that’s rather the point. If you go digging, you’ll find correlations. Hence announcing you’ve found a correlation is unconvincing in and of itself. It’s the starting point for going and finding a mechanism that you can then use to show causality. Or using experimentation to establish causality. Without that, you’ve got nothing, frankly. Or you have a back-worked mechanism that is as likely to be bollocks as meaningful.

 

[Wilf]

"Number of people who died falling into a pool" correlates with "films Nicolas Cage appeared in".

There is a link, clearly - if the number of the former increased by 1, the latter would stop increasing.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

"Number of people who died falling into a pool" correlates with "films Nicolas Cage appeared in".

Worldwide non-commercial space launches correlates 78.92% with US sociology doctorates awarded...

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Fact is, as well, that we are sexed based on our reproductive class, not our fingers or neurology(!!!)

Categorisation by looking at index finger ratio and inutero "washing": Very Good Indeed

Categorisation by sex parts: PHOBIC

 

[bimble]

I'm learning to drive (very belatedly) and looked up the statistics for male v female first time pass rates which were depressing as hell. I find that stuff interesting. Failed twice so far, femininely, despite finger-lengths.