Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[8ball]

I think that’s rather the point. If you go digging, you’ll find correlations. Hence announcing you’ve found a correlation is unconvincing in and of itself. It’s the starting point for going and finding a mechanism that you can then use to show causality. Or using experimentation to establish causality. Without that, you’ve got nothing, frankly. Or you have a back-worked mechanism that is as likely to be bollocks as meaningful.

Indeed. One correlation by itself can mean nothing at all.
Though you have to wonder about the Nicolas Cage thing.

 

[mojo pixy]

Would they? Why?

Sanctions for transgression to me suggest gender being prescribed in some way and probably thereby continuing oppression.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

I'm learning to drive (very belatedly) and looked up the statistics for male v female first time pass rates which were depressing as hell. I find that stuff interesting. Failed twice so far, femininely, despite finger-lengths.

I passed first time. Must be my man-brain.

(actually more likely that I was OBSESSED by spacial puzzles, and 3D imagining techniques and thus practised these skills making my very plastic brain better at that sort of stuff... or it could just be man-brain).

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Categorisation by looking at index finger ratio and inutero "washing": Very Good Indeed

Categorisation by sex parts: PHOBIC

It's odd, isn't it...

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Categorisation by looking at index finger ratio and inutero "washing": Very Good Indeed

Categorisation by sex parts: PHOBIC

Unfortunately, trans people are told nonsense like this by 'gender counsellors'.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Categorisation by looking at index finger ratio and inutero "washing": Very Good Indeed

Categorisation by sex parts: PHOBIC

Interestingly, as a study I posted on here about a million posts up shows, for *some* trans males the neurology reflects 'feminisation' of certain areas, but this 'feminisation' is the same as is seen in the neurology of homosexual males. Non-homosexual males show different neurology again. It supports This result is important, because what it does do is show there are two types of transsexual male, one of which is a form of the homosexual male. The meaning of this for wider studies is that neurological tests need to be controlled for sexual orientation, to account for this difference. In the absence of this, any neurological study will likely have limited use.

 

[8ball]

I passed first time. Must be my man-brain.

(actually more likely that I was OBSESSED by spacial puzzles, and 3D imagining techniques and thus practised these skills making my very plastic brain better at that sort of stuff... or it could just be man-brain).

I think it’s all the practise AND your man-brain.

 

[smokedout]

Interestingly, as a study I posted on here about a million posts up shows, for *some* trans males the neurology reflects 'feminisation' of certain areas, but this 'feminisation' is the same as is seen in the neurology of homosexual males. Non-homosexual males show different neurology again. It supports This result is important, because what it does do is show there are two types of transsexual male, one of which is a form of the homosexual male. The meaning of this for wider studies is that neurological tests need to be controlled for sexual orientation, to account for this difference. In the absence of this, any neurological study will likely have limited use.

Strange how you dismiss all the neurological evidence except that which slightly fits with your half baked essentialist autogynephile theory

 

[Pickman's model]

Strange how you dismiss all the neurological evidence except that which slightly fits with your half baked essentialist autogynephile theory

Not to mention lying about stats.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Strange how you dismiss all the neurological evidence except that which slightly fits with your half baked essentialist autogynephile theory

That doesn't follow. And it's not *my* theory. Find me something peer-reviewed that shows it's nonsense, and we can have a constructive discussion. I'm always open to have my mind changed on this.

 

[smokedout]

That doesn't follow. And it's not *my* theory. Find me something peer-reviewed that shows it's nonsense, and we can have a constructive discussion. I'm always open to have my mind changed on this.

I think Julie Serano pretty comprehensively demolishes it, but when a theory depends on anyone who doesn't fit it being a liar then it is of course very difficult to falsify.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I think Julie Serano pretty comprehensively demolishes it, but when a theory depends on anyone who doesn't fit it being a liar then it is of course very difficult to falsify.

I'm really not sure Serano does, indeed Serano's own narrative appears to provide evidence of Serano's own autogynephilia; also you'll be aware, I presume, of Serano's own suggestion of, in essence, rebranding such as 'female embodiment fantasies': I can understand why Serano would wish to do this, and to my mind anything that helps people deal with the reality of how they are is good by me, but it's hardly a substantive scientific objection.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I think Julie Serano pretty comprehensively demolishes it, but when a theory depends on anyone who doesn't fit it being a liar then it is of course very difficult to falsify.

It's this paper I am referring to:

http://www.juliaserano.com/av/Serano-CaseAgainstAutogynephilia.pdf

 

[xenon]

I just been trying to measure my fingers. (Cheers internet.) I think my ring finger is longer. More so on the left hand. but index finger is further forward... That's normal right? /weird hands

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm really not sure Serano does, indeed Serano's own narrative appears to provide evidence of Serano's own autogynephilia;

Where? In this paper? I don't see any reference to herself at all. I do see a pretty comprehensive dismantling of Blanchard's theories (and explanation of the frankly nasty assumptions that underpin them). She does a very good job of explaining the torturous mental gymnastics that Blanchard, Lawrence et al have to engage in in order to cling to their theories.

Really, regardless of anything else, it's time you dumped Blanchard.

 

[Pickman's model]

I just been trying to measure my fingers. (Cheers internet.) I think my ring finger is longer. More so on the left hand. but index finger is further forward... That's normal right? /weird hands

that's right, weird hands are normal.

 

[Pickman's model]

Where? In this paper? I don't see any reference to herself at all. I do see a pretty comprehensive dismantling of Blanchard's theories (and explanation of the frankly nasty assumptions that underpin them). She does a very good job of explaining the torturous mental gymnastics that Blanchard, Lawrence et al have to engage in in order to cling to their theories.

Really, regardless of anything else, it's time you dumped Blanchard.

it's sexually violent transwomen with grcs in prison all over again

 

[campanula]

Vague correlations here in 'addiction studies'...where the social or the disease/genetic models cycle in and out of fashion...nearly always because of the prevailing political ideology. Bit like the 'gay gene. Of course, as a druggie, I am more than happy to play whatever game gets me my script - I will argue dysfunctional childhood till the cows come home if this is the expectation...or I will happily go along with some personal psychological dysfunction if it is advantageous (but obviously, I am a lying junkie - it comes with the territory).
Seriously, I think mrs quoad is up to scratch on this sort of thing(I am probably just chatting shit off the top of my head). You cannot keep science as some pure objective clarity, untainted by filthy agendas...O no. As far as 'essentialism' goes, I would argue that politics(ideology) is the actual 'essence'
Soz to derail into personal stuff but, you know...

 

[pengaleng]

Unfortunately, trans people are told nonsense like this by 'gender counsellors'.

wtaf are you on about??

 

[pengaleng]

nah seriously, you go counselling cus yer heads fucked about this and instead of you talking you get talked at by the counsellor, in what fucking dimension does that happen

you know it's called talking therapy right and it's actually about the individual and whats happening to them, counselling isnt trans 101 where you get told how to think

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Like a white person saying they've never seen racism. Gobsmacking. If TERFism only existed online then we could all safely disregard them..

Britain is TERF central. It’s the only place (at least in the English speaking world) where TERFs have a mainstream media presence or have the numbers to put together campaigns that anyone who isn’t actively looking for them (or particularly unlucky) might encounter. Here in Ireland, every single feminist group, abortion rights campaign or left wing organization is at least formally trans inclusive . There are TERFs here, but if one of them were to turn up to a feminist campaign group and openly make TERF arguments there would be uproar and they would find themselves ostracized instantly. It would be as unacceptable as making racist or homophobic arguments. I’ve heard lots of transphobic arguments in person, but they’ve always been from Catholic Ultras or other reactionaries.

Even in Britain it’s important to distinguish between different types of transphobia. Conservative transphobia is by far the dominant strand. Social conservatives are a minority in a Britain and they’ve long been on the back foot but they are still a powerful social force with a strong influence in the press, in parliament etc. TERFs are not a powerful social force. They are a subset of the RadFem minority of the feminist movement. We are talking about small numbers of people adhering to a bigoted variant of a very marginal ideology. They control no significant institutions, have no strength in numbers and are loathed by the bulk of their political neighbors (ie the feminist, lgbt and socialist movements). It’s that very powerlessness that leads them into alliances with social conservatives - despite their constant disingenuous attempts to present themselves as speaking on behalf of vast numbers of women, they are all too aware that they have no influence of their own and have to rely on more powerful actors to achieve their goals.

It is in their role as gleeful assistants to the conservative right that they can manage to have some real world impact, providing both allegedly “progressive”arguments for the use of reactionaries in the media and a series of shock stories for them to peddle. But grotesque as that is, it still doesn’t make them independently influential. They are just useful idiots for the likes of David Davis and the Times. I realize that when you have to put up with horrible shitheads like the bigots on this thread that they can loom quite large, but ultimately once the social conservatives are beaten back, their junior allies won’t matter.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Where? In this paper? I don't see any reference to herself at all. I do see a pretty comprehensive dismantling of Blanchard's theories (and explanation of the frankly nasty assumptions that underpin them). She does a very good job of explaining the torturous mental gymnastics that Blanchard, Lawrence et al have to engage in in order to cling to their theories.

Really, regardless of anything else, it's time you dumped Blanchard.

No, you'll find it in 'Whipping Girl'. I quoted the passage somewhere above.

Seriously, I think you'll find it's not B or L who have to do mental gymnastics. You only have to look at 'lewd trans' accounts on Twitter to see this is a thing.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Britain is TERF central. It’s the only place (at least in the English speaking world) where TERFs have a mainstream media presence or have the numbers to put together campaigns that anyone who isn’t actively looking for them (or particularly unlucky) might encounter. Here in Ireland, every single feminist group, abortion rights campaign or left wing organization is at least formally trans inclusive . There are TERFs here, but if one of them were to turn up to a feminist campaign group and openly make TERF arguments there would be uproar and they would find themselves ostracized instantly. It would be as unacceptable as making racist or homophobic arguments. I’ve heard lots of transphobic arguments in person, but they’ve always been from Catholic Ultras or other reactionaries.

Even in Britain it’s important to distinguish between different types of transphobia. Conservative transphobia is by far the dominant strand. Social conservatives are a minority in a Britain and they’ve long been on the back foot but they are still a powerful social force with a strong influence in the press, in parliament etc. TERFs are not a powerful social force. They are a subset of the RadFem minority of the feminist movement. We are talking about small numbers of people adhering to a bigoted variant of a very marginal ideology. They control no significant institutions, have no strength in numbers and are loathed by the bulk of their political neighbors (ie the feminist, lgbt and socialist movements). It’s that very powerlessness that leads them into alliances with social conservatives - despite their constant disingenuous attempts to present themselves as speaking on behalf of vast numbers of women, they are all too aware that they have no influence of their own and have to rely on more powerful actors to achieve their goals.

It is in their role as gleeful assistants to the conservative right that they can manage to have some real world impact, providing both allegedly “progressive”arguments for the use of reactionaries in the media and a series of shock stories for them to peddle. But grotesque as that is, it still doesn’t make them independently influential. They are just useful idiots for the likes of David Davis and the Times. I realize that when you have to put up with horrible shitheads like the bigots on this thread that they can loom quite large, but ultimately once the social conservatives are beaten back, their junior allies won’t matter.

This is exactly how lefty dudes use 'trans women' as a human shield for their own mysogyny.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

nah seriously, you go counselling cus yer heads fucked about this and instead of you talking you get talked at by the counsellor, in what fucking dimension does that happen

you know it's called talking therapy right and it's actually about the individual and whats happening to them, counselling isnt trans 101 where you get told how to think

You're deranged. I wish you all the best for the future, but please get help.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Where? In this paper? I don't see any reference to herself at all. I do see a pretty comprehensive dismantling of Blanchard's theories (and explanation of the frankly nasty assumptions that underpin them). She does a very good job of explaining the torturous mental gymnastics that Blanchard, Lawrence et al have to engage in in order to cling to their theories.

Really, regardless of anything else, it's time you dumped Blanchard.

Here:

Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

Julia Serano in “Whipping Girl”, Serano’s “transfeminist manifesto”:

When I hit puberty, my newly found attraction to women spilled into my dreams of becoming a girl. For me, sexuality became a strange combination of jealousy, self-loathing, and lust. Because when you isolate an impressionable transgender teen and bombard her with billboard ads baring bikiniclad women and boys’ locker room trash talk about this girl’s tits and that girl’s ass, then she will learn to turn her gender identity into a fetish… my thirteen-year-old brain started concocting scenarios straight out of SM handbooks. Most of my fantasies began with my abduction: I’d turn to putty in the hands of some twisted man who would turn me into a woman as part of his evil plan. It’s called forced feminization, and it’s not really about sex. It is about turning the humiliation you feel into pleasure, transforming the loss of male privilege into the best fuck ever.​

This is classic autogynephilia, written by Serano’s own hand.

I'm happy to elaborate and explain how this statement supports my argument.

 

[8ball]

On a "making friends" mission tonight, Miranda?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

On a "making friends" mission tonight, Miranda?

Always

It's funny though how many people run away when you say "no, it's okay, I know I'm male, and I'm not 'brave' for doing this, I did it because I had to". In my experience, trans 'allies' can be incredibly abusive. Especially men like Nigel bloke who is clearly using my own community for his own reasons.

 

[Thimble Queen]

Always

It's funny though how many people run away when you say "no, it's okay, I know I'm male, and I'm not 'brave' for doing this, I did it because I had to". In my experience, trans 'allies' can be incredibly abusive. Especially men like Nigel bloke who is clearly using my own community for his own reasons.

If you know you are male, why do you have a woman's name and use a gender neutral pronoun? Genuine questions.

 

[8ball]

Always

It's funny though how many people run away when you say "no, it's okay, I know I'm male, and I'm not 'brave' for doing this, I did it because I had to". In my experience, trans 'allies' can be incredibly abusive. Especially men like Nigel bloke who is clearly using my own community for his own reasons.

I can't say what Nigel's agenda is aside from not being keen on terfs. Or at least some terfs.

 

[Treacle Toes]

If you know you are male, why do you have a woman's name and use a gender neutral pronoun? Genuine questions.

More than a fair enough question considering. If one thinks of themselves as male, gender neutral pronouns and invasive surgery seem odd 'regalia' to me.