Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Pickman's model]

If you don't agree with Scientology does that mean the ideology that scientologists ascribe to doesn't exist?

You don't know what ascribe means

 

[bimble]

You don't know what ascribe means

oops. I meant subscribe didn't it. Haven't had coffee yet.

 

[Thimble Queen]

I think I should say that what led me here was the reaction to/subsequent treatment of Helen Steele during/after the anarchist bookfair.
I don't know how we progress at all, once you/one make enemies of people like her.
​

I can tell you my worries, if that's helpful?
My daughter is 12. She has friends who are *just* being 12 but she also has quite a number who're constantly switching what they feel comfortable with in terms of their 'gender identity' - whatever that means to them.

The very obvious change is *the internet* - whether it leads you to the right place, or just the place that's right *right now* has got to be factored in, doesn't it?
Honestly, I am worried.

Sheo what is it that worries you? Isn't it fairly normal for young people to experiment with sexuality and identity. 12 does seem young but kids are growing up a lot faster these days. Is there any behaviour that you see from your daughter's friends that you see as destructive or unhealthy?

 

[mojo pixy]

I can tell you my worries, if that's helpful?​

My daughter is 12. She has friends who are *just* being 12 but she also has quite a number who're constantly switching what they feel comfortable with in terms of their 'gender identity' - whatever that means to them.

The very obvious change is *the internet* - whether it leads you to the right place, or just the place that's right *right now* has got to be factored in, doesn't it?
Honestly, I am worried.

To an extent I see what you mean, and I don't want to sound flippant, but what exactly are you worried about? That the kids won't understand the world you're familiar with, or that they're in the process of making a world you don't understand / feel comfortable with?

It's been said on this thread before but I agree, I think there's quite a lot of generation gap stuff going on with worries like these .. which I may in ways even share, but on reflection I can't help feeling my worries about the kids are my problem, not theirs.

That's a gut reaction though, not a fully-examined rational position.

 

[bimble]

Also you know that a fraction of 1% of people transition, whether that be socially or medically, or whatever. Hardly a major market opportunity.

I think its probably a good idea to acknowledge that nobody knows the stats on this, for now.
According to this for example, the percentage of young people in America identifying as trans is somewhere between 1.3 and 3.2% . As it says ' clearly more research is needed in this area'.

 

[kabbes]

I think there's quite a lot of generation gap stuff going on with worries like these .. which I may in ways even share, but on reflection I can't help feeling my worries about the kids are my problem, not theirs.

Leaving aside the issue of transgender for a minute, I think it’s worth noting that just because things evolve, this doesn’t mean all societies are morally neutrally equivalent or just as good as each other. It doesn’t mean that there isn’t some accumulated wisdom that is worth hanging onto as well as the hang-ups that need discarding. Humans are incredibly adaptable and plastic in their brain structure but that doesn’t mean there aren’t fundamentals that will always lead to wellbeing on the one hand or anxiety on the other.

The fact is that levels of anxiety in the Anglosphere in particular are rising at epidemic speeds and something is causing that. It’s not fuddy-duddy to try to investigate the root causes and draw conclusions based on sound psychological research. The evidence so far is that the tenets of consumerism create psychological tensions that are extremely problematic. This doesn’t exist in isolation, it’s a whole social context. To the extent that the youth are lured into chasing a shiny consumerist individualist prize, it is thus somewhat incumbent on older, wiser heads to pull them back from the cliff edge.

 

[Sea Star]

It just sounds like your daughter is probably clever, thoughtful, and as such has found favour with others in her school who are similar- the geeks always find each other. In my day it was sexuality we were going WHATEVER GOES with. And we also liked what we called "gender bending" too, but we paid lip service to that really, it was just about painting our male friend's nails then. This is what young people do.

When I was 12 though, it was cider us council estate kids were into, and smoking though I didn't like that so much. I did the gender bending a bit later. Latter probably healthier

i was always too scared to even go there in case i was outed. I was really paranoid about people finding out that i was - didn't have a word for it then - but what i now know is trans.
I had a friend - my best friend for a couple of years (just recently got back in touch and he's out as gay now and looking rather butch these days ) - and he used to feminise his look plenty under the guise of being a new romantic. We used to go to Topshop looking at blouses, but i would never dare to show any interest for myself. When i was 17 i went round to my neighbour's house - there was him and a mate and two girls in there, drinking, having a bit of a party, planning to go to a club in town. One of the girls told me she wanted to take me upstairs and dress me up and put make up on me. I was absolutely terrified of doing that so i said no. Madness really, i could probably have come out in that situation, but unfortunately i'd been made to think i was a complete freak and that i just had to purge all that from my mind.

 

[Sea Star]

I think its probably a good idea to acknowledge that nobody knows the stats on this, for now.
According to this for example, the percentage of young people in America identifying as trans is somewhere between 1.3 and 3.2% . As it says ' clearly more research is needed in this area'.

That's not completely true. There has been a lot of research - results vary among different surveys due to different definitions but if you're talking about binary transgender people - people most likely to change gender and want surgery it comes out fairly consistently as between 0.6% in countries where there's low acceptance and up to 1.3% in countries where there is high acceptance. If you add in non-binary and other trans identities then, yeah, it will be higher.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

If you don't agree with Scientology does that mean the ideology that scientologists ascribe to doesn't exist?

Bimble, mate. Just stick your fingers in your ears and sing a song, would have same effect but wouldn't be winding us up so much

 

[mojo pixy]

Leaving aside the issue of transgender for a minute, I think it’s worth noting that just because things evolve, this doesn’t mean all societies are morally neutrally equivalent or just as good as each other. It doesn’t mean that there isn’t some accumulated wisdom that is worth hanging onto as well as the hang-ups that need discarding. Humans are incredibly adaptable and plastic in their brain structure but that doesn’t mean there aren’t fundamentals that will always lead to wellbeing on the one hand or anxiety on the other.

The fact is that levels of anxiety in the Anglosphere in particular are rising at epidemic speeds and something is causing that. It’s not fuddy-duddy to try to investigate the root causes and draw conclusions based on sound psychological research. The evidence so far is that the tenets of consumerism create psychological tensions that are extremely problematic. This doesn’t exist in isolation, it’s a whole social context. To the extent that the youth are lured into chasing a shiny consumerist individualist prize, it is thus somewhat incumbent on older, wiser heads to pull them back from the cliff edge.

I'm not sure cliff edge is a fair characterisation of where 'we' (society in general) are. Loading this trans phenomenon down with all the negative baggage it seems to be getting is completely understandable, something similar happens with every new generation, but looking back over the last hundred years or so, is this necessarily more shocking or troubling than other new phenomena that have taken place and also been condemned widely at the time as the decline of youth and society? Women with short hair and men's clothing (1920s), Nazism (1930s), rock n roll (50s), hippies (60s), punk (70s), E culture (80s+) etc?

I'm really not sure.

EtA all these are not morally equivalent of course, but what they all are is examples of huge social change. Some ended up bad, some not so bad, but till trans people are rounding up cis people and killing them I'm not convinced this particular social change is the disaster yet that some apparently want it to be.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Leaving aside the issue of transgender for a minute, I think it’s worth noting that just because things evolve, this doesn’t mean all societies are morally neutrally equivalent or just as good as each other. It doesn’t mean that there isn’t some accumulated wisdom that is worth hanging onto as well as the hang-ups that need discarding. Humans are incredibly adaptable and plastic in their brain structure but that doesn’t mean there aren’t fundamentals that will always lead to wellbeing on the one hand or anxiety on the other.

The fact is that levels of anxiety in the Anglosphere in particular are rising at epidemic speeds and something is causing that. It’s not fuddy-duddy to try to investigate the root causes and draw conclusions based on sound psychological research. The evidence so far is that the tenets of consumerism create psychological tensions that are extremely problematic. This doesn’t exist in isolation, it’s a whole social context. To the extent that the youth are lured into chasing a shiny consumerist individualist prize, it is thus somewhat incumbent on older, wiser heads to pull them back from the cliff edge.

I remember experimenting with sexuality etc as being a relatively anxiety-free time once I found people on my wavelength. Just wondering how you think this would tie in with younger kids today taking it that bit further ? Not that i am disagreeing with anything you have written, I worry about that too. I prescribe among other things lots of fresh air and tackling munroes when my son is a bit older. And certainly steering him away from social media but that will probably prove to be difficult. Some nasty stuff flying around in there, bullying etc. I hear about what goes on with kids at the academy where I stay and it sounds far worse than anything I had to go through, I also wonder how much this ties in with management in our workplaces moving towards a more bullying style from the 90's onwards, whether that is having an effect on the kids too at school. The pressure to meet targets being passed down . I know it's a problem in social care anyway, don't know so much about schools.

Digressing loads there


Not to mention incoherent, time to hit the pool i think.

 

[8ball]

It came up on another posters post, not mine. There’s a profit motive involved, whys that so irrelevant? Why can’t I comment? I’m really not understanding this reaction.

If you mean my post, then there was an element of implication that there could be some exploration of potential market opportunities involved in the way these children are being treated - though I wasn’t thinking in term of major transitioning or surgery so much as responding to the prior comments regarding stuff like, for example ‘a touch of testosterone for an “andro look”’ - I could imagine an opportunity for consultancy services to the rich and pampered here - as with things like botox, it’s the services rather than than the drugs that create the profit margins.

My main point, though, was about the kind of healthcare system that puts a “customer is king” and consumer choice ethos above the care of potentially vulnerable minors, rather than the broadbrush “Big Medicine Making Profit From People With Particular Condition” issue, which as kabbes said, is a much bigger topic, and as others have said, probably a distraction on this thead (while perhaps worthy of discussion elsewhere).

Hope that clears things up a little.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not sure cliff edge is a fair characterisation of where 'we' (society in general) are. Loading this trans phenomenon down with all the negative baggage it seems to be getting is completely understandable, something similar happens with every new generation, but looking back over the last hundred years or so, is this necessarily more shocking or troubling than other new phenomena that have taken place and also been condemned widely at the time as the decline of youth and society? Women with short hair and men's clothing (1920s), Nazism (1930s), rock n roll (50s), hippies (60s), punk (70s), E culture (80s+) etc?

I'm really not sure.

EtA all these are not morally equivalent of course, but what they all are is examples of huge social change. Some ended up bad, some not so bad, but till trans people are rounding up cis people and killing them I'm not convinced this particular social change is the disaster yet that some apparently want it to be.

Not sure nazism a huge social change in 1930s uk

 

[mojo pixy]

No OK, not huge specifically in the UK but it and fascism more generally were big in some places and did gain a certain following both here and in the US. We could add communism too, another movement that has inspired plenty of pearl clutching as the years passed. The world still hasn't ended and I don't think the blossoming of trans people is a sign of end days either. Men and women and everyone else will survive and hopefully thrive.

EtA
FWIW I actually think this will all lead to somewhere positive in the end. I believe this trans phenomenon is in part a by-product of increasing sexual equality, and I believe sexual equality will continue to grow and improve because of all this, not fail.

 

[Sea Star]

but till trans people are rounding up cis people and killing them....

Who have you been speaking to... that's not supposed to be public yet


Did I hear someone mention Nazis?
How the Nazis derailed the medical advances around sexual reassignment surgery

 

[smokedout]

My main point, though, was about the kind of healthcare system that puts a “customer is king” and consumer choice ethos above the care of potentially vulnerable minors,

I'm not sure this is what's going on, or at least not to a greater extent that it is with other treatments within privatised healthcare. Everything I've read suggests these protocols have come about because of such high rates of suicide attempts and depression/anxiety amongst trans kids. Early evidence (and anecdotal reports from both patients and doctors} suggests a supportive transition, with hormone blockers, has positive outcomes whilst attempts at reparative therapy have shown to have tragic results.

METHODS:
A total of 55 young transgender adults (22 transwomen and 33 transmen) who had received puberty suppression during adolescence were assessed 3 times: before the start of puberty suppression (mean age, 13.6 years), when cross-sex hormones were introduced (mean age, 16.7 years), and at least 1 year after gender reassignment surgery (mean age, 20.7 years). Psychological functioning (GD, body image, global functioning, depression, anxiety, emotional and behavioral problems) and objective (social and educational/professional functioning) and subjective (quality of life, satisfaction with life and happiness) well-being were investigated.

RESULTS:
After gender reassignment, in young adulthood, the GD was alleviated and psychological functioning had steadily improved. Well-being was similar to or better than same-age young adults from the general population. Improvements in psychological functioning were positively correlated with postsurgical subjective well-being.

CONCLUSIONS:
A clinical protocol of a multidisciplinary team with mental health professionals, physicians, and surgeons, including puberty suppression, followed by cross-sex hormones and gender reassignment surgery, provides gender dysphoric youth who seek gender reassignment from early puberty on, the opportunity to develop into well-functioning young adults.

Young adult psychological outcome after puberty suppression and gender reassignment. - PubMed - NCBI

RESULTS:
At baseline, GD adolescents showed poor functioning with a CGAS mean score of 57.7 ± 12.3. GD adolescents' global functioning improved significantly after 6 months of psychological support (CGAS mean score: 60.7 ± 12.5; P < 0.001). Moreover, GD adolescents receiving also puberty suppression had significantly better psychosocial functioning after 12 months of GnRHa (67.4 ± 13.9) compared with when they had received only psychological support (60.9 ± 12.2, P = 0.001).

CONCLUSION:
Psychological support and puberty suppression were both associated with an improved global psychosocial functioning in GD adolescents. Both these interventions may be considered effective in the clinical management of psychosocial functioning difficulties in GD adolescents.

Psychological Support, Puberty Suppression, and Psychosocial Functioning in Adolescents with Gender Dysphoria. - PubMed - NCBI

RESULTS:
Behavioral and emotional problems and depressive symptoms decreased, while general functioning improved significantly during puberty suppression. Feelings of anxiety and anger did not change between T0 and T1. While changes over time were equal for both sexes, compared with natal males, natal females were older when they started puberty suppression and showed more problem behavior at both T0 and T1. Gender dysphoria and body satisfaction did not change between T0 and T1. No adolescent withdrew from puberty suppression, and all started cross-sex hormone treatment, the first step of actual gender reassignment.

CONCLUSION:
Puberty suppression may be considered a valuable contribution in the clinical management of gender dysphoria in adolescents.

Puberty suppression in adolescents with gender identity disorder: a prospective follow-up study. - PubMed - NCBI

Given how sparingly this treatment is used would it be ethical to both ignore the above and the feelings of patients due to some ideological objection?

 

[bimble]

mojo pixy eh what now? Young people being trans is a bit like being into rock n roll or being a hippie or a nazi? I thought you were of the opinion there's nothing ideological going on here at all really.

 

[8ball]

I'm not sure this is what's going on, or at least not to a greater extent that it is with other treatments within privatised healthcare.

Thanks for the considered post - I’ll def be taking a closer look at these links later.

 

[mojo pixy]

mojo pixy eh what now? Young people being trans is a bit like being into rock n roll or being a hippie or a nazi? I thought you were of the opinion there's nothing ideological going on here at all really.

Well I'm not sure I've stated that. Plus what's ideological about rock n roll? Cultural change is what I'm on about, cultural change roundly condemned by older generations. The decline of youth and society, disaster around the corner etc.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Who have you been speaking to... that's not supposed to be public yet


Did I hear someone mention Nazis?
How the Nazis derailed the medical advances around sexual reassignment surgery

It took 265 pages to bring up Nazis! Mind you we did get likened to fash earlier on.

 

[MochaSoul]

Who have you been speaking to... that's not supposed to be public yet


Did I hear someone mention Nazis?
How the Nazis derailed the medical advances around sexual reassignment surgery

Not content with trampling over MLK day you decide to make Holocaust Memorial day all about how the Nazis affected trans too. At least the author of the piece had more sense.
FFS

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Not content with trampling over MLK day you decide to make Holocaust Memorial day all about how the Nazis affected trans too. At least the author of the piece had more sense.
FFS

Be still, jerking knee.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Not content with trampling over MLK day you decide to make Holocaust Memorial day all about how the Nazis affected trans too. At least the author of the piece had more sense.
FFS

Actually explain your logic here, is it a cross thread beef?

 

[Vintage Paw]

Yeah, how dare the day be used to remember the victims of the Nazis.

Jesus, this fucking thread.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Searched holocaust memorial day and it does appear Sea Star used the piece(written by an author with sense) as a response to Mojo Pixi's mention of Nazis and nowhere else today.

 

[Vintage Paw]

It's almost like mochasoul doesn't respond to things in this thread in good faith.

 

[mojo pixy]

I'm pretty sure homosexual and transgender people were also hated and killed by Nazis anyway. Holocaust remembrance day belongs to them too.

 

[bimble]

Plenty of holocaust memorial day to go round. Please let’s not fight about this.

 

[MochaSoul]

So not sorry, VP. Other people are talking about Bosnia and Rwanda. People who actually died. It's hard to be aware of how people got experimented on by the Nazis and then hearing moaning about they didn't choose to do those for the benefit of another group of people.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Quotes would help, I was sure I only had one rum