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Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

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c) it’s relevant to reference their biological sex to make sense of the socialisation and power dynamics that underly the assault.

Yes, exactly. At that incident, the one described as 'Ponytail' snatched my phone and ran off with it, I caught him and wrestled it off him. His associates were yelling at me to 'leave her alone'. I could not believe what I was hearing. Does this look like a woman to you?

 
I want to ask something. There are folk here, like Nigel Irritable and smokedout , who have been saying that feminists should be rejoicing about the way in which young people by asserting their various gender identities are dealing a blow to the whole oppressive social system of gender.
I do not get how that argument in any way ties in to either
a) The attempts to show a biological basis for people being trans
or
b) the fact that (some) young people are choosing to surgically / medically alter their bodies to better fit their gender identities.
 
I just want to point something out, which seems to have become a point of tedious blockage.
As someone who is trans who has throughout my life moved within gay culture, I know who the real allies of trans people are, and I know full well that, come the inevitable backlash, men like you are the very men who will turn on us.

So, no. I do not accept your arguments.

I'd like to know more about this. You could not be more wrong about me turning on trans people under any future scenario, and rather than spit my dummy out about this hilarious prediction, I would like to understand how on earth you have reached that conclusion. And for that matter the one about some great backlash against trans being inevitable?

And then subsequent increasingly irate demands for proof that you personally, elbows, will turn on whoever “us” is referring to.

Whilst the language that MY has used is hardly the friendliest (not that this has arisen in isolation), the statement does not say anything about what you, specifically and personally, will do given the theoretical backlash. It’s about “men like you”.

Now, I also find this categorisation vague and unhelpfully antagonistic. I can only interpret it (and MY may correct) as meaning something like “men who are particularly vocal about how women should not feel threatened by the widening of legislation to encompass those born male”. This, or whatever else MY means, may or may not be an appropriate descriptor of you personally. Either way, however, that doesn’t affect MY’s statement about their impressions of how men who do fall into this category will behave given a change in circumstances.

As personal as it may feel to be lumped into whatever the category is MY is referring to, basically, the statement is not actually making a prediction about what you, personally, will do given any future theoretical backlash.
 
Well, doing something to confront violence against women and homophobia, two cultural vectors which do have a material impact on the lives of trans people, would be too much like hard work.

Has Terrorizer magazine commented on this yet, not just the currently dropped charges but the response from the band's fans? Bit embarrassing for you isn't it, you've given this band quite a lot of support.

You're a hypocrite, you're probably one of the most influential people in the most misogynist music scene that exists in the UK and I haven't seen any evidence of you doing much, or anything, to challenge that. Instead you promote bands that glorify rape at worst and trivialise it at best - one of the reasons misogyny is so prevalent on the extreme metal scene. Yet you call yourself a radical feminist because you go round misgendering trans people. Because that's obviously the priority, not doing what you can to end male sexual violence against women.
 
As personal as it may feel to be lumped into whatever the category is MY is referring to, basically, the statement is not actually making a prediction about what you, personally, will do given any future theoretical backlash.

In my much calmer and more reflective mood of yesterday and the night before when Miranda made that post, I was able to dwell on that sort of rather charitable interpretation of what she was saying. Its the reason I have repeatedly asked about this in terms of this supposed backlash. I'm not going to pretend that I didnt take some of the comments personally, but the idea of the backlash is where my primary concern is focussed, and I've got nothing to work with at the moment!
 
while I am so not getting into this, you've just described weasel words pretty well, and how insinuation works. no need to respond, I am merely an observer here.
Yes, it’s a weasel way to behave. But hardly out of step for what else MY has both taken and received on this thread. It doesn’t warrant a personal odyssey into the personality breakdown of elbows as proof one way or other of how he specifically will react to an entirely theoretical future scenario. And getting hung up on that is getting boring now.
 
So we are continuing to talk about pronouns then, ok.

I've read this before. And it doesn't explain why you are 'they' and not 'he'. Why should everyone tiptoe around you and your pronouns when you don't do it for others? It's about basic decency tbh.

Has Miranda requested anyone ‘tiptoe around’ their pronouns?
 
In my much calmer and more reflective mood of yesterday and the night before when Miranda made that post, I was able to dwell on that sort of rather charitable interpretation of what she was saying. Its the reason I have repeatedly asked about this in terms of this supposed backlash. I'm not going to pretend that I didnt take some of the comments personally, but the idea of the backlash is where my primary concern is focussed, and I've got nothing to work with at the moment!
Ah, well. I am also both interested in and worried about the potential for backlashes. They rarely manifest as predicted — witness the backlash to capitalism emerging as a step to the right rather than the left in many places, for example. So I am interested to hear from anybody about their views as to what could potentially emerge in this instance.
 
It’s about “men like you”.

Now, I also find this categorisation vague and unhelpfully antagonistic. I can only interpret it (and MY may correct) as meaning something like “men who are particularly vocal about how women should not feel threatened by the widening of legislation to encompass those born male”. This, or whatever else MY means, may or may not be an appropriate descriptor of you personally. Either way, however, that doesn’t affect MY’s statement about their impressions of how men who do fall into this category will behave given a change in circumstances.

As personal as it may feel to be lumped into whatever the category is MY is referring to, basically, the statement is not actually making a prediction about what you, personally, will do given any future theoretical backlash.

Basically what I am saying is that here we have a man who is not trans telling someone who is trans, and has lived this life, that they are wrong on a number of counts about trans issues, even though, in their own words, on this they are

still learning.

People cannot self-identify as allies, they can only offer to be so. Being an ally is not about being an outsider to that group and expecting individuals within that group to form an ideological monolith, then criticising and attacking those who refuse to comply with group or the outsider's own ideology.

If you get me.

My worry is he's very hostile towards trans people he doesn't like, for whatever reason, and as we've seen disagreement is reframed as hate and expressions of opinion as lies. This is polarising behaviour, and makes me doubt the sincerity of his claimed allegiance. In this debate, radical deminists are painted as the villains, yet in my experience the real bad guys are the allies.

Here's a 'for example'.

I'm sorry if my language sometimes comes across as terse, it's just the way I write: you won't though find my using abusive language against anyone.
 
On the other hand, I think I'd also make a pretty crummy trans ally if I had to agree with every theory every trans person comes out with, and could never disagree rudely with any of them.

I recognise that while some of my posts attempt to cross the crude divide, others are very much part of the pronounced polarisation of some of these discussions. You too are nothing if not polarising, but recognition of that seems limited.
 
I'll tell you something else I will acknowledge. It was me that brought up the question of allies first, and suggested that some of the people you are aligned with do not have the same overarching agenda and destination in mind as you.

As such it is entirely understandable that part of your response was to try to turn ally-related matters back against me.

If you wont discuss the backlash with me, will you at least provide links to any of your existing articles that cover it?
 
I might be able to fairly describe at least part of Mirandas attitude towards that. They have their own opinions about this stuff, but have emphasised that they know they cannot control how other people choose to use such words.

Yeah that's fair. I was feeling a bit cross when I posted that. But it's absolute bollocks to say that MY doesn't care about them. MY wouldn't have written a whole bloody blog post about it otherwise :thumbs:
 
Ah, well. I am also both interested in and worried about the potential for backlashes. They rarely manifest as predicted — witness the backlash to capitalism emerging as a step to the right rather than the left in many places, for example. So I am interested to hear from anybody about their views as to what could potentially emerge in this instance.

I think a backlash started with the incident at the start of this thread. I think the situation has been made worse by the abject failure of groups like Stonewall and individuals like Peter Tatchell to exercise any community leadership over this. I think with the way that groups like Mermaids, Gendered Intelligence and GIRES are going into schools and as near as dammit presenting children with a change of sex as a resolution to their own interests not matching cultural expectations of biological sex (in effect telling them their body does not match their personality) may backfire especially badly. Gender dysphoria and transsexual is a complicated thing, and there is no one cause. There is a cultural vector at the moment which tells us we have to have treatment protocols which treat all trans people the same, which ignores the different etiologies. I don't think instrumentalising children in this way is either an effective or sustainable way to promote the acceptance of trans people.
 
FWIW, I think some of the current activity just dismissed as “TERFs, huh” by the likes of Nigel is itself actually a backlash. One arising from women seeing their political spaces undermined by a focus on and priority of transgender issues rather than the material disadvantages that still exist for natal women (and frequently in life threatening ways at that). As long as support for the direction of transgender rights was simply a case of live and let live, it was easy to give it tacit support, and to not have an opinion one way or other on the underlying politics of the situation. However, when you start being told that you are no longer allowed to join the very institutions that were set up to protect you because you don’t think the “right way” about gender, that is the kind of stimulus that backlashes are made of.
 
As a tranny who, like many other trannies, has used the word 'tranny' for considerable periods of time, you are not ever going to stop me using the word 'tranny'. And 'tranny' when used by trannies in this way, is not abusive.

Tranny.
Tranny.
Tranny.

Just wanted to clarify what's abusive and what's not.
 
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tranny was an affectionate term back in the day, I learned that off jack halberstam, people just get offended at it because people shout it at em in the street, getting shouted tranny in the street by a bunch of kids changes things. yer fucking dense Dave.
 
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