Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Miranda Yardley]

I understand that one of the individuals in that video at the beginning of this thread has been charged with actual bodily harm. The other two have not been located.

Not quite as serious as the ABH that Miranda Yardley claimed she'd been charged with then. I think some people have been lying so long they've forgotten to tell the truth.

How thoroughly dishonest of you.

And let's no lose sight of what this is: a man has been charged with assaulting a woman, and your response is 'well it's not as serious as so and so said it was'. You seem to think it's okay(!) Remind me again how men's violence against women is not cultural...

 

[elbows]

Remind me never to use instances of disgusting and unacceptable violence against women as crude point-scoring instruments. Women deserve much better than this, and I look forward to talking about this case once the justice process allows it to be discussed more fully.

 

[Thimble Queen]

How thoroughly dishonest of you.

And let's no lose sight of what this is: a man has been charged with assaulting a woman, and your response is 'well it's not as serious as so and so said it was'. You seem to think it's okay(!) Remind me again how men's violence against women is not cultural...

Quoting this as a reminder of your repeated misgendering of trans women

 

[Pickman's model]

How thoroughly dishonest of you.

yeh? you don't have a leg to stand on here, miranda

To oppose sexual violence, one needs to be able to identify the agent. If the agent is misreported, for example as female when male, we are not identifying where the problem lies. For example, the imprisonment statistics for sexually violent women are often quoted by transactivists claiming 'woman can be violent too'. Yes, they can, sure. But as the figures released by the government last year show, a proportion of the 110-odd women reported for being in prison for sexual violence are 'trans women' with gender recognition certificates.

Note I am not saying 'trans women' are at higher risk of being sexually violent.

perhaps you could withdraw this claim now

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Quoting this as a reminder of your repeated misgendering of trans women

Thanks for confirming your trivialisation of male violence against women by prioritising the thought-crime of 'misgendering'.

 

[elbows]

You trivialise it with some of your crapper accusations, fuckwit. Tell me about the backlash you lying, disingenuous piece of shit.

 

[bimble]

You trivialise it with some of your crapper accusations, fuckwit. Tell me about the backlash you lying, disingenuous piece of shit.

Great stuff. Posting as a reminder of what a great ally you are to all trans people.

 

[co-op]

You trivialise it with some of your crapper accusations, fuckwit. Tell me about the backlash you lying, disingenuous piece of shit.

Fucks sake.

 

[elbows]

Great stuff. Posting as a reminder of what a great ally you are to all trans people.

Yeah yeah, very convincing. I've been asking for over 24 hours about the backlash under which circumstance Miranda suggested I would betray trans people. If you dont think I have the right to be angry about that and all the other things I've been angry about in this thread then never mind.

I wouldnt throw Miranda under the bus under any circumstances, but I make zero apology for being rude to their face given what they've said here.

 

[elbows]

Fucks sake.

Oh noes, I called someone a piece of shit. I've clearly betrayed an entire minority. Fuck off.

 

[bimble]

Over 24 hours without them jumping to do your bidding? How awful.

 

[MochaSoul]

The defenders of the New Orthodoxy get in a real bind when any of this stuff comes up in debate. On the one hand it’s absolutely part of the orthodoxy itself that to debate with “transphobia” is by definition transphobic so the only response they’re really allowed is to chant simplistic mantras and slurs at anyone who isn’t fully signed up. But on the other hand they can see how this alienates the unconverted or ‘ignorant’ majority outside of their tiny political bubbles so they feel obliged to join debate.

The tension between the two poles leads to the sort of chronic dishonesty you’ve highlighted and often means it all gets kind of weird at some point - case in point, the outbreak of kids-in-the-back-row sniggering on the last few pages; you can almost feel the nervous tension bursting out. Face? Bovvered? Am I?

I am bothered. Not by their antics but by the consequences of their sophistry to women out there in the real word like Labour, de facto, making AWS's illegal by including transgender women, when it's patently clear all it would take to dismantle them is one of the men who have been against them from the start to challenge them on the grounds of sex discrimination (not even sure if this would not apply even if the transgender woman has a GRC); or younger lesbians worried that even associating as friends risks ostracism even from their own communities. Here I'm just wasting my time (I am bothered by that too actually ) and it breaks my heart to see people having to apologise as they enter a debate as one of xenon 's last posts clearly shows. I come to urban to have fun. Sophistry in the place of debate is not fun. I didn't take "God works in mysterious ways" from Catholics and I won't take the mantras of some transgender people. I've given ample opportunity to convince me that I was right to easily dismiss my friend who first spoke to me about the threat to women's places. No more. More importantly though... the real struggle is out there and we've only just started with women awakening from their slumber and siding with our younger lesbian sisters (the ones born with a vagina that is) for whom few and far between words of solidarity are heard from the virtual signalling SJW crowd and instead the baying chant of "transphobic" as in the medieval display I have heard took place at the book fair. My voice is needed there. Not here. #LabourLosingWomen is gaining Momentum on twitter by the way and creative displays of resistance are a pleasure in and of themselves. Like this one:

Over and out... again.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

You trivialise it with some of your crapper accusations, fuckwit. Tell me about the backlash you lying, disingenuous piece of shit.

Again, you frame disagreement and difference of opinion as hate. You're gaslighting me, this just shows how abusive you really are.

With allies like you, we don't need enemies.

 

[elbows]

Oh well thats cleared everything up.

Do you know what gaslighting means? What false information have I fed you to make you doubt your sanity?

 

[Thimble Queen]

Thanks for confirming your trivialisation of male violence against women by prioritising the thought-crime of 'misgendering'.

LOL. Why are you they and not he if its so insignificant

I'm not even going to respond to your bullshit claim.

 

[bimble]

This obsession with pronouns is telling i think, its like that's the only thing some people want to talk about, nothing else.

 

[elbows]

Oh great, now my blood pressure has gone all wrong because I am livid that the term gaslighting is being watered down and trivialised, robbing people of the accurate language they need to describe and challenge abusive behaviour and abuse of power.

 

[smokedout]

My politics aren’t a personal journey. The system fucks lots of people. I base mine on class which may be old fashioned but it’s still correct.

It's correct, but not to the detriment of all other things. Or should we get rid of fighting for disability access, challenging racism, protecting LGBT spaces, calling for better mental health provision or teaching migrants English? If the class is divided because of racism, misogyny, homophobia and transphobia - or a failure to recognise the material needs of some sections of the class - then class struggle is going nowhere. It's not identity politics to ensure all working class people are included, united, and mentally and physically healthy enough to fight.

The recent trans demands centred about better education, healthcare and prisons, less state bureacracy and increased protection against discrimination in the workplace. You can want those things, and fight for those things for everybody and still recognise that some sections of the working class are not receiving even the basics of the shite attempt at a social wage and so-called rights they fob us off with.

 

[elbows]

This obsession with pronouns is telling i think, its like that's the only thing some people want to talk about, nothing else.

People like me? If you checked my output in that regard you might notice it was a brief foray into that territory in response to some specific things. I'm not generally obsessed with it, but I make no apology for use it as an indicator.

 

[Thimble Queen]

Oh great, now my blood pressure has gone all wrong because I am livid that the term gaslighting is being watered down and trivialised, robbing people of the accurate language they need to describe and challenge abusive behaviour and abuse of power.

Not liking for your blood pressure, obvs. But for the sentiment.

 

[bimble]

I wasn't talking about you elbows, it was in reply to Thimble Queen.

 

[elbows]

Oh great, now my blood pressure has gone all wrong because I am livid that the term gaslighting is being watered down and trivialised, robbing people of the accurate language they need to describe and challenge abusive behaviour and abuse of power.

And yes, I am sensitive to the arguments people make about certain modern trends in ideas and language potentially causing damage to other groups. For example, I have assembled at least a partial understanding of why some people have a problem with things like cis, and I keep my own useage of such terms to a minimum at this stage, especially when I am still learning.

 

[Thimble Queen]

I wasn't talking about you elbows, it was in reply to Thimble Queen.

Why not quote me in the first place rather than refering to some people. It was thinly fucking veiled anyway

 

[smokedout]

Thanks for confirming your trivialisation of male violence against women by prioritising the thought-crime of 'misgendering'.

You never did tell us whether as a business owner and employer you would refuse to treat a trans employee in their acquired gender. Would you?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

This obsession with pronouns is telling i think, its like that's the only thing some people want to talk about, nothing else.

Well, doing something to confront violence against women and homophobia, two cultural vectors which do have a material impact on the lives of trans people, would be too much like hard work.

 

[bimble]

Why not quote me in the first place rather than refering to some people. It was thinly fucking veiled anyway

Its not just you. Your post was a really striking example is all of the pronoun thing.

 

[Shechemite]

I’m not sure that misgendering is a relevant issue when describing the (alleged) attacker at Hyde park, given that a) (as has been said) it’s less important than the violent act itself, b) the individual isn’t a participant in this conversation (so upsetting them isn’t really a concern), and c) it’s relevant to reference their biological sex to make sense of the socialisation and power dynamics that underly the assault.

 

[bimble]

I think some people would disagree with you on all 3 of those points MadeInBedlam, but especially the last one.

 

[Thimble Queen]

Its not just you. Your post was a really striking example is all of the pronoun thing.

The conversation has moved on from the rights and wrongs of the incident that kicked off this thread. I didn't see a need to go back there tbh.

Further, it's not the misgendering in itself that I was highlighting more that MY continues not to treat people the way MY expects to be treated. MYs behaviour stinks.

 

[elbows]

Over 24 hours without them jumping to do your bidding? How awful.

I dont really think asking someone to explain more about their accusations towards me that I will abandon trans people and that there will be an inevitable backlash against trans people is demanding that they do my bidding.

Especially when a large-scale backlash would be a hideous thing, and so surely something rather important to discuss further, not just chuck out there and walk away.

But no, apparently its just more trivialised shit used crudely in this polarised debate.