Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[bimble]

Doesn't matter how many times I say I don't subscribe to lady brains crap it just keeps getting trotted out.

But you did say, ages ago (on that toxic masculinity thread) that maybe your over-dipmlomatic style and lack of assertiveness was due to being female. Do you understand why that is problematic for someone like me?

 

[bimble]

face it yer just shit bongle

No I am a really good driver apart from in driving tests.

 

[Sea Star]

But you did say, ages ago (on that toxic masculinity thread) that maybe your over-dipmlomatic style and lack of assertiveness was due to being female. Do you understand why that is problematic for someone like me?

Learned behaviour, that's all. And that's me, not you. Just because something is statistically probable (and I read in feminist articles how lacking in confidence and assertiveness so many women are) it doesn't mean that its everyone's destiny.

And again - the double standards. That is something that would go unremarked on if said by cis women, in fact I believe it was said by some cis women on that thread, but it's me that had to defend it, consider how it might affect every other woman, etc.

I just don't have the energy.

 

[bimble]

Learned behaviour, that's all

But how did you learn the habits of womanly diplomacy? Do you mean you learnt them since publically coming out as a woman?

 

[pengaleng]

No I am a really good driver apart from in driving tests.

are you as bad as maureen from driving school?

 

[pengaleng]

But how did you learn the habits of womanly diplomacy? Do you mean you learnt them since publically coming out as trans?

basically if you grow up viewing yourself as xyz you will behave like xyz cus people mirror social behaviour

 

[bimble]

are you as bad as maureen from driving school?

eh rah hah.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

That open letter is at 600 or so signatories already, all of them non trans women involved in the feminist movement.

 

[Sea Star]

basically if you grow up viewing yourself as xyz you will behave like xyz cus people mirror social behaviour

Possibly even more so if you're autistic. So called high functioning autism, especially among girls, is all about learning from watching the behaviour of others, rather than learning or understanding the underlying rules.

 

[Sea Star]

But how did you learn the habits of womanly diplomacy? Do you mean you learnt them since publically coming out as a woman?

What Peng said

 

[bimble]

basically if you grow up viewing yourself as xyz you will behave like xyz cus people mirror social behaviour

Thats the stuff i find really interesting. So if you observe some other person / group of people being treated a way, and if you identify with them (that group) then you are basically being socialised as them, just at a distance? So you know what its like to be them (and come to feel that you are one of them)?

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

That open letter is at 600 or so signatories already, all of them non trans women involved in the feminist movement.

I've no doubt Athos will be keen to ensure no one shuts these women down.

 

[Sea Star]

Right. I need to get at least one episode of walking dead in before I fall asleep...

 

[pengaleng]

Thats the stuff i find really interesting. So if you observe some other person / group of people being treated a way, you are basically being socialised as them, just at a distance? So you know what its like to be them (and come to feel that you are them) if you identify with them ?

well people also have siblings, diverse social groups and acquaintances, so it depends on the extent that you get treated as such i guess, you notice things

and more often than not you decide how you feel about yourself early on without having much exposure to the world

 

[Athos]

I've no doubt Athos will be keen to ensure no one shuts these women down.

Absolutely. I explicitly called for us to hear more evidence from the Irish experience of self-ID, earlier in the thread, when challanging MY's suggestion that it would be apocalyptic in the UK. I've never tried to shut down the debate on this issue. It's dishonest of you to imply otherwise.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Possibly even more so if you're autistic. So called high functioning autism, especially among girls, is all about learning from watching the behaviour of others, rather than learning or understanding the underlying rules.

Yes, and with some learning difficulties this is the case too, certainly more so than usual.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Right. I need to get at least one episode of walking dead in before I fall asleep...

Night night!

 

[bimble]

and more often than not you decide how you feel about yourself early on without having much exposure to the world

Intriguing. And that decision about what your self is like, what sort of a self it is, doesn't change as you evolve in the face of you know, the world? . I hope it does change, as people get a bit wiser very slowly. Like my 17 year old ideas about what my Self was like were a bit rubbish tbh.

 

[elbows]

The last line of my post is missing from your quote; it confirms what I changed. Also, I expained how the circumstances changed.

But, really, you can say believe (or claim to) what you want, though I am suspicious of the motives of those who slur those with whom they disagree, rather than engage with the content of their posts.

Is the last line missing from my quote because I deleted it, or because you added it to your post after I had already quoted you?

One persons slur may be anothers fair assessment of a person based on hundreds of their posts over time. Be as suspicious as you like, dont know what difference it will make to your bloody unconvincing mr reasonable act.

 

[pengaleng]

Intriguing. And that decision about what your self is like, what sort of a self it is, doesn't change as you evolve in the face of you know, the world? . I hope it does change, as people get a bit wiser very slowly. Like my 17 year old ideas about what my Self was like were a bit rubbish tbh.

you taken the word 'decide' a bit too literally I think it's not actually a conscious decision like deciding to go on holiday or what you want to do with your life cus like most people get this shit at like 4 years old isnt it and it's not like the self as in personality it's like the realisation that you have things called hands

like the first time you hear people talk about this shit they are usually adults and it's brand new to you so it gets interpreted as a whimsical decision or something people are only just considering now, but it's not new to the person the only thing thats new to them is the fact they are talking about it and that the medical world has advanced so that they have options now

 

[MochaSoul]

Pretty powerful stuff from Irish feminists here

An open letter to the organisers of the “We Need to Talk Tour” from a group of feminists in Ireland
Posted by Sinéad Redmond


We write as cisgender feminists in Ireland to the organisers of the ‘We Need To Talk’ speaking tour who plan to hold an event in Ireland in February.


An open letter to the organisers of the “We Need to Talk Tour” from a group of feminists in Ireland

We do not need you here. We have not had your support in our fight for #repealthe8th, our fight against the historical and ongoing impact of the Magdalene Laundries, our fight for taking back control of our hospitals from religious orders, our fight for justice for women and babies tortured and entombed in Mother and Baby homes.

"Agree or you're out and we'll disavow you despite all you may have done to get us this far."
Women excluding women from debating an issue regarding women and usurping them of their roles and contributions to earlier achievements.
It's actually quite depressing.

On twitter the simple questioning of building trans prisons or trans wings in prisons (as in Italy) could mean solitary confinement at least occasionally (depending on their proportion in the population) and that's not humane is a scandal. I get angry and irritated and I don't always make sense not even to myself but FFS. These groups need a rethink of terms like solidarity and what they mean in practice, big time.

That article ST posted on identity politics should be compulsory reading to everyone.

As everyone knows, those who are said to belong to a certain identity often – if not most of the time – fail to behave according to their ascribed interests. When this happens, a number of arguments are marshalled to salvage the determinism of identity politics. First, in language hauntingly similar to the discredited concept of “false consciousness,” partisans of identity politics blame those who betray their interests as having been duped. Second, they charge collaboration. For example, instead of engaging with the content of their work, some critics denounce writers like Adolph Reed and Barbara Fields as “Uncle Toms,” even likening them to Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice. Third, those who deviate from the politics demanded by their identity might be accused of not actually being of that identity. This is why people of color who criticize identity politics are so often accused of being white.

We've seen all of that and more in this debate and the purges haven't started yet.

 

[8ball]

No I am a really good driver apart from in driving tests.

I think most of us who have been driving for years would flunk a driving test in the first 5 minutes if called up to do one out of the blue.

 

[8ball]

basically if you grow up viewing yourself as xyz you will behave like xyz cus people mirror social behaviour

Though some of us are really shit at the mirroring bit.

 

[Shechemite]

You don’t learn anything until you’ve passed anyway.

 

[8ball]

You don’t learn anything until you’ve passed anyway.

Well, the test is about basic car control, teaching you the rules and how to be safe on the road etc.

You def start learning in a different way after that, but what some people learn isn’t exactly how to be a safe driver. Especially when in the first flush of testosterone.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

"Agree or you're out and we'll disavow you despite all you may have done to get us this far."
Women excluding women from debating an issue regarding women and usurping them of their roles and contributions to earlier achievements.

Exactly what have British TERFs done to get the women signing this letter anywhere? Much of the point of the letter is that they’ve never encountered any useful solidarity from any of the transphobic minority of the British feminist movement in their struggles for abortion rights and bodily autonomy. Including in the struggle for abortion rights in Northern Ireland, a part of the British state. Yet those same TERFs now see fit to send an expedition to Ireland to try to inject transphobia into a feminist movement that lacks it.

We've seen all of that and more in this debate and the purges haven't started yet.

Well, Dr Radfem has just announced that the Labour Party have suspended her...

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

you taken the word 'decide' a bit too literally I think it's not actually a conscious decision like deciding to go on holiday or what you want to do with your life cus like most people get this shit at like 4 years old isnt it and it's not like the self as in personality it's like the realisation that you have things called hands

FWIW from my observations going to toddler group with my son he seemed to become aware of his gender once he was on his feet but before he could talk, started looking to play with Boys as if he realised thats what i am. It was just me and him at home and I was quite isolated otherwise due to being single, miles away from family, and pretty unwell (PND not far off PPP i think). His awareness of actual gender roles seemed to come about when he started nursery, this is boys stuff etc. He had long hair but dressed boyishly so I guess that could account for the awareness when younger, I guess it can be in your face, but his sudden awareness did seem quite marked. It's interesting.

Well, the test is about basic car control, teaching you the rules and how to be safe on the road etc.

You def start learning in a different way after that, but what some people learn isn’t exactly how to be a safe driver. Especially when in the first flush of testosterone.

God aye I am bad for speed if alone in car with no kids. Luckily my current Nissan Micra is way up at 3 revs going 60, and I don't like the sound of upset engines so that's correcting my adrenaline addiction.

 

[MochaSoul]

Exactly what have British TERFs done to get the women signing this letter anywhere? Much of the point of the letter is that they’ve never encountered any useful solidarity from any of the transphobic minority of the British feminist movement in their struggles for abortion rights and bodily autonomy. Including in the struggle for abortion rights in Northern Ireland, a part of the British state. Yet those same TERFs now see fit to send an expedition to Ireland to try to inject transphobia into a feminist movement that lacks it.

I was going to abortion rights demos before I was old enough to be able to affiliate myself to any sort of political organisations. I went by my mum's hand who never really affiliated herself to political organisations outside of her union. I went to the Stop the War massive demo even though I wasn't affiliated to any political organisations in this country at the time because I hadn't yet developed a meaningful social network let alone a political one. And when I went to the "Stop the Cuts" demo three or four years ago or the anti-austerity one last year I didn't go as a member of a union even though I am unionised. I went as a human being who disagreed with government's politics. You may want those women disavowed completely but you won't convince me that none of those women contributed in any way.

 

[kabbes]

No I am a really good driver apart from in driving tests.

Because it’s not the spatial awareness or handling skill that is affected by the cultural bias so much as it is the reaction to being tested.

(For the record, the kabbess is better than me at driving across every conceivable axis with the exception of parallel parking, where my willingness to apply a specific method at slow speeds lends me an edge).

 

[Athos]

Be as suspicious as you like, dont know what difference it will make to your bloody unconvincing mr reasonable act.

It's not a act. My position on this is reasonable.