Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Vintage Paw]

Are you suggesting that I've tried to stop any woman being heard? Because I haven't.

It's okay for you, a man, to talk a lot about this subject because you're on the side of women you agree with. It's not okay for Nigel to talk a lot about this subject because he's on the side of women you disagree with.

Got it.

 

[Athos]

Here we are again saying that it's the bad men who are stopping the women from speaking, completely ignoring that women like me take issue with transphobic arguments as well.

In fact I spent some time previously on this thread talking about why it's absolute balderdash to suggest that equality for trans people means issues that affect cis women will be sidelined or done away with altogether.

Which is a reasonable position, and one with which i broadly agree, in most instances (to the extent it's my place to say, as a man). But you've not behaved in the same way as Nigel.

 

[Sea Star]

At least you're being honest.

No one is asking you to opt out of it.

The problem here is that you see trans people as deciding to opt in or out of something. Like it's a whimsical choice. For the heck of it.

I wouldn't have chosen this if I had a choice. I spent all my life until 4 years ago trying to escape this. But if you're a trans woman, you just can't. I'd love to see how a cis woman gets on living as a man - I don't think it can be done. The psychological strain of trying to be someone you're not is too great.

 

[bimble]

At least you're being honest.

No one is asking you to opt out of it.

The problem here is that you see trans people as deciding to opt in or out of something. Like it's a whimsical choice. For the heck of it.

Under trans people you include everyone who identifies as all the flavours of non binary?
I know that Miranda Yardley is persona non grata round here but they once described themselves as a 'refugee from masculinity'. That makes sense to me, doesn't make them a woman but someone who has tried to do whatever they felt they had to do at the time to get out of the rigid roles ascribed to them.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Which is a reasonable position, and one with which i broadly agree, in most instances (to the extent it's my place to say, as a man). But you've not behaved in the same way as Nigel.

I've liked a large number of Nigel's posts. I broadly agree with what he's posted.

 

[Athos]

It's okay for you, a man, to talk a lot about this subject because you're on the side of women you agree with. It's not okay for Nigel to talk a lot about this subject because he's on the side of women you disagree with.

Got it.

No that's not it. First because I don't think it's a binary as that (no pun intended); I'm not on the opposite side from him - I'm broadly pro-inclusion. And, secondly, because I've not tried to shout down those with whom I've disagreed (on both sides of the debate), by calling them names.

 

[Athos]

Women have opinions too, Athos. Nigel isn't the only person speaking on this, but his is the only voice you're willing to notice. Why do you ignore women, Athos?

That's a cheap shot. You'll see that I've engaged with women throughout this thread. And I've explained why I find his approach so objectionable.

 

[Athos]

I've liked a large number of Nigel's posts. I broadly agree with what he's posted.

Yet you've not behaved as he has.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Under trans people you include everyone who identifies as all the flavours of non binary?

My original point, and your reply of admission, was that you don't believe trans women are women. That was my frame of reference for my reply.

You seem particularly interested in the non-binary side of things. Is it to further invalidate the position of trans women? Is it to further invalidate the notion of gender apart from yours? What is it about non-binary people in particular that interests you?

 

[Vintage Paw]

Yet you've not behaved as he has.

Because I'm largely conflict-averse and I don't want to be shouted at for calling people terfs. But I do believe there are terfs on this thread and I find them and their ideas and their arguments objectionable. I don't often see the point in engaging with them because their tactics are transparent. Sometimes I engage out of sheer anger and frustration, sometimes out of a silly idealism and naivety thinking maybe my arguments might make a difference. But largely I don't. Because their arguments are dishonest and tedious and engaging supposes their ideas are in some way valid, and they are not.

 

[Athos]

That’s not a “valid concern”, it’s zero sum horseshit that assumes that solidarity with those with overlapping but not identical concerns wastes energy rather than creating a stronger movement on all fronts. As you are no doubt aware, the feminist movement in Ireland has a very large mobilizing capacity (it can put more people on the street than any other social movement by a distance) and it has a primary, even overwhelming, focus on issues of reproductive health. Supporting trans rights hasn’t negatively impacted that movement in any way and has helped it develop mutual solidarity with lgbt movements. The only reason why trans issues can be viewed as a distraction in Britain is because an obsessively anti trans minority of bigots keep creating rows about the subject. Where such bigots are completely marginal that hasn’t happened. That open letter is a response to those bigots in Britain trying to create similar rows here.

Quite. The context of feminism in Ireland and the UK are quite different. But don't let that stop you, and Irish man, from deciding the validity of British women's concerns.

 

[snadge]

Are you suggesting that I've tried to stop any woman being heard? Because I haven't.

It's alright, the women that have spoken are also ignored.

 

[Athos]

Because I'm largely conflict-averse and I don't want to be shouted at for calling people terfs. But I do believe there are terfs on this thread and I find them and their ideas and their arguments objectionable.

So do I. But I also believe there are a number of women who've been unjustly slurred as such (and others who are too intimidated to even voice their misgivings).

 

[bimble]

My original point, and your reply of admission, was that you don't believe trans women are women. That was my frame of reference for my reply.

You seem particularly interested in the non-binary side of things. Is it to further invalidate the position of trans women? Is it to further invalidate the notion of gender apart from yours? What is it about non-binary people in particular that interests you?

I am particularly interested in the idea of there being non binary people because I don't get it. I think surely everyone is non binary, really. This must be because my understanding of the mysterious thing called Gender Identity is still not up to speed.
I'm not interested in an argument about whether or not Trans Women Are Women, I'm happy to treat people how they desire to be treated* but the word woman is clearly up for grabs at the moment and has, currently, no particular shared meaning.
*unless treating them how they want to be treated hurts me in some way

 

[Vintage Paw]

So do I. But I also believe there are a number of women who've been unjustly slurred as such (and others who are too intimidated to even voice their misgivings).

I've not seen the word terf used against anyone I didn't think it applied to. Perhaps I haven't looked hard enough. You see, I didn't come on this thread for a very, very long time because I felt too intimidated to voice my misgivings.

 

[Athos]

I've not seen the word terf used against anyone I didn't think it applied to. Perhaps I haven't looked hard enough. You see, I didn't come on this thread for a very, very long time because I felt too intimidated to voice my misgivings.

Well I hope I did nothing to add to that intimidation. I think this is an issue that deserves sensible discussion (for the sake of women and trans people). That's why I object to Nigel's position.

 

[Sea Star]

Under trans people you include everyone who identifies as all the flavours of non binary?
I know that Miranda Yardley is persona non grata round here but they once described themselves as a 'refugee from masculinity'. That makes sense to me, doesn't make them a woman but someone who has tried to do whatever they felt they had to do at the time to get out of the rigid roles ascribed to them.

That's not how I feel. I tried to be a man. There are many ways to be masculine, and a man, but I came to realise and accept I'm not a man.

 

[bimble]

That's not how I feel. I tried to be a man. There are many ways to be masculine, and a man, but I came to realise and accept I'm not a man.

I really don't want to say anything that will hurt you, I like you, especially your stink pipe website etc, but how did you come to feel that what you are is defined (in part) by the word woman?

 

[smokedout]

I've not seen the word terf used against anyone I didn't think it applied to. Perhaps I haven't looked hard enough. You see, I didn't come on this thread for a very, very long time because I felt too intimidated to voice my misgivings.

The findings of that Stonewall survey really don't seem to tally with a group that has seized feminism and the Labour Party for it's own, terrified women's organisations into supporting trans inclusion, silenced all women's and all right wing voices, controls the media, the NHS, the legal system and the school system and can force lesbians to have sex against their will with people with penises because they are too scared of being shunned by civil society if they don't.

 

[Sea Star]

I really don't want to say anything that will hurt you, I like you, especially your stink pipe website etc, but how did you come to feel that what you are is defined (in part) by the word woman?

I don't think there's any way to simply answer that. Just persistent internal knowledge that wore away at me over years, with dissociation associated with living as a fake, constructed personality,

Truly, I never accepted myself as a woman until the last couple of years. I transitioned thinking it was just something I need to do for my mental health, but as I've let myself become more me I now know who I am. Probably in the same way that cis people just know who they are. My dysphoria had mostly gone. My dissociative feelings have gone. I now no longer feel like I'm an observer inside another person watching their life crash while I feel I'm missing out on my real life.

Anyway, I feel I've come full circle now. I don't think there's much mileage to be had in talking about one persons experience. While mine aren't untypical, they are just my experience.

 

[Pickman's model]

I really don't want to say anything that will hurt you, I like you, especially your stink pipe website etc, but how did you come to feel that what you are is defined (in part) by the word woman?

Tbh what I am is defined (at least in part) by the word woman, as one doesn't just define oneself by what one is but against what one isn't.

 

[Vintage Paw]

I don't think there's any way to simply answer that. Just persistent internal knowledge that wore away at me over years, with dissociation associated with living as a fake, constructed personality,

Truly, I never accepted myself as a woman until the last couple of years. I transitioned thinking it was just something I need to do for my mental health, but as I've let myself become more me I now know who I am. Probably in the same way that cis people just know who they are. My dysphoria had mostly gone. My dissociative feelings have gone. I now no longer feel like I'm an observer inside another person watching their life crash while I feel I'm missing out on my real life.

Anyway, I feel I've come full circle now. I don't think there's much mileage to be had in talking about one persons experience. While mine aren't untypical, they are just my experience.

This is part of what I meant earlier, that trans people (particularly women) are asked to prove beyond doubt what gender is to them, what makes them a woman, what gender is in its entirety, and to account for how gender works throughout society. Cis women aren't asked to do the same thing before they are accepted as being women. I don't think the balance of expectation is equal or fair.

 

[bimble]

I don't think there's any way to simply answer that. Just persistent internal knowledge that wore away at me over years, with dissociation associated with living as a fake, constructed personality,

Truly, I never accepted myself as a woman until the last couple of years. I transitioned thinking it was just something I need to do for my mental health, but as I've let myself become more me I now know who I am. Probably in the same way that cis people just know who they are. My dysphoria had mostly gone. My dissociative feelings have gone. I now no longer feel like I'm an observer inside another person watching their life crash while I feel I'm missing out on my real life.

Anyway, I feel I've come full circle now. I don't think there's much mileage to be had in talking about one persons experience. While mine aren't untypical, they are just my experience.

Thanks for trying to answer Sea Star. The personal experience stuff is really helpful imo. I think I'm a 'cis person' but don't 'know who i am' in the way you suggest that all cis people might do, but I think to some extent i get the dissociative state and feelings.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Well I hope I did nothing to add to that intimidation. I think this is an issue that deserves sensible discussion (for the sake of women and trans people). That's why I object to Nigel's position.

You don't intimidate me, Athos. You never have and you never will. I've always had the measure of you.

 

[Athos]

You don't intimidate me, Athos. You never have and you never will. I've always had the measure of you.

Good, I don't want to.

I get the feeling you're playing the man, not the ball, now, though.

 

[Vintage Paw]

"Demanding education is often a tactic to exhaust & distract people."

I just saw this elsewhere.

I think that's worth keeping in mind when looking at certain 'discussion' techniques.

 

[bimble]

Tbh what I am is defined (at least in part) by the word woman, as one doesn't just define oneself by what one is but against what one isn't.

Yes. Just as the meaning of the word 'yellow' is defined by being not blue or green. (this was the endgame of my trans rights v unreconstructed feminism argument with the bf last night. We ended up with this, handing each other coloured pencils and agreeing that nobody knows what yellow is anyway. )
But my idea of woman is totally informed by my idea of what man means, of course. Can't exist without it.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Good, I don't want to.

I get the feeling you're playing the man, not the ball, now, though.

I've made it clear in the past I do not believe your intentions. I see no need to rehash that. It needs no more said other than I don't trust you and I don't believe your posts are made in good faith.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Yes. Just as the meaning of the word 'yellow' is defined by being not blue or green. (this was the endgame of my trans rights v unreconstructed feminism argument with the bf last night. We ended up with this, handing each other coloured pencils and agreeing that nobody knows what yellow is anyway. )
But my idea of woman is totally informed by my idea of what man means, of course. Can't exist without it.

The problem comes when it's only trans women (or trans men, or non-binary people, but mostly trans women) who are expected to forgo parts of their existence because of this, while cis people can carry on regardless.

 

[Athos]

I've made it clear in the past I do not believe your intentions. I see no need to rehash that. It needs no more said other than I don't trust you and I don't believe your posts are made in good faith.

That's a cop out, without any basis in truth, and unsuported by any evidence.