Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
I don't need to prove whether I trust you.
Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?
- Thread starter The Flying Pig
- Start date
- Status
I don't need to prove whether I trust you.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I didn't say you did. It's a convenient way of declining to engage with the argument, though.
Last edited:
bimble
floofy
I get that. Trans women are in the spotlight as people who are asked to explain their idea of gender identity in a way that I'm not. If I just carried on with my life and didn't become totally perplexed by this stuff I could probably carry on regardless, like most of the 4 billon or so people in the world with vaginas who have for the most part no choice whatsoever about whether or not they are / 'identify as' women.
Last edited:
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
And I think the point is that trans people don't really have a choice either because trying to ignore what they really are really fucks them up. All around the world.
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
I've discussed with you at length in the past why I don't believe you are genuine or honest. I will not have that discussion again. Feel free to search back for it if you want the key talking points. I won't be baited by your distraction techniques. I don't care if that's not good enough for you.
Athos
Well-Known Member
No you haven't.
bimble
floofy
You honestly think this (identifying out of the gender expected of your biological sex) is an option for people 'all around the world'?
I know you don't think that because you're not silly. So lets not bring 'all around the world' into this conversation.
I do stuff for work with women's not for profits, and got to go to Bangladesh recently.
There are massive issues there to do with the life chances and options of people born with female bodies AKA women. Are those people cis?
Last edited:
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
This is something I've thrown in before, but I think it was back when the debate was so heated that anything i said got shot down and disregarded immediately. I think i was told that i needed to stop using intersex people to prop up my arguments about trans. Well, before I go there, there is an important cross-over between trans and intersex and one that frequently leads to intersex people also identifying as trans. For me it's objective evidence of some sort of internal gender identity. I know an intersex campaigner and we chat about this stuff from time to time. They were born a boy, physically and it turned out, in gender identity terms too. But with very small genitals they were reshaped as a vagina when he was very young. So, anyway, no-one asked him. His parents brought him up as a girl. Now he reports feeling classic dysphoria symptoms from a young age. Eventually he was old enough to tell everyone he was actually a boy, but he wasn't then aware of having surgeries, that he was actually born a boy. But he knew. Anyway I looked this up. It seems that for years surgeons who do this have bought into the gender is totally a construct and can be changed by socialisation theory. But 50% of the time they got it wrong. There was a tendency for years to make more into girls than boys because the surgery was easier. Anyway - over the years I've come across a few trans women who have since found out they are intersex and were actually born girls but raised as boys and forced into a male puberty. And there are many, many cases of this sort of thing. To me it says we all know who we are but there's only a problem if we disagree with what the whole of society, doctors, churches, schools, parents, etc tell us we are. Then every moment of life can just be hellish. Anyway I just mention this because i was really struck by this at the time - how similar my early feelings of dysphoria were to my friends', but seemingly for different reasons.
also - an aside - see i get confused as I've been told that sex and gender are such different things and yet gender dysphoria, for me anyway, and others that I've discussed this with, is largely about the physical body and not having the body shape that some part of you tells you that you ought to have - borne out in studies of trans women and cis men losing/removing genitalia and our very different ways of responding - a little bit like phantom limb disorder except with external genitalia and trans women don;t just dont have it, while cis men do. So for me my feelings of being a woman stem at least in part from expectation that my voice should be higher, my face more feminine, that i should have female body, and genitals, and not having any of those things just consistently hit me every day, driving me more and more into myself. I'm not saying that's all trans people, but it's many of us.
also - an aside - see i get confused as I've been told that sex and gender are such different things and yet gender dysphoria, for me anyway, and others that I've discussed this with, is largely about the physical body and not having the body shape that some part of you tells you that you ought to have - borne out in studies of trans women and cis men losing/removing genitalia and our very different ways of responding - a little bit like phantom limb disorder except with external genitalia and trans women don;t just dont have it, while cis men do. So for me my feelings of being a woman stem at least in part from expectation that my voice should be higher, my face more feminine, that i should have female body, and genitals, and not having any of those things just consistently hit me every day, driving me more and more into myself. I'm not saying that's all trans people, but it's many of us.
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
Yes, I have. And it eventually culminated in you saying you were leaving this type of thread alone, doing so, and then coming back claiming to be a new man.
I will not talk about it anymore.
Athos
Well-Known Member
No you haven't.
Treacle Toes
Time
Clearly don't know your own mind then Vintage Paw
Either that or you aren't being listened to.
Amazing, really. The unravelling.
Either that or you aren't being listened to.
Amazing, really. The unravelling.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Clearly don't know your own mind then Vintage Paw
Either that or you aren't being listened to.
Amazing, really. The unravelling.
It's nothing to do with knowing her own mind.
I'm listening and replying.
I just don't think what she claims is true.
Don't let that deter your shit-stirring, though.
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
it wasn't an option for me 40 years ago, living in a working class community in the UK, that's not the point. There's anecdotal evidence that trans people in the UK at least often just committed suicide - or, and I've read accounts of very senior trans women - they just deal with it, keep it hidden, or live a secret second life when they can. But that brings associated mental disorders. And this is how it will happen globally. Those who try to express it may well be outcast, or even killed, which might end up being a suicide. I've commonly heard of trans people engaging in extremely risky behaviour once they feel they have no reason to live - or met the ones that keep going out of duty to family. In Brazil trans women are pretty much all dead before old age kicks in. In the US trans women on average die much younger than cis people. In ages gone by trans people were considered human trash to be disposed off or thrown away. Even the gay community didn't want us.
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
my sister told me only women pass first time. I passed first time. My sister didn't. It's all bollocks really!View attachment 125918
What is this pantomine bollocks. I failed my 3rd driving test today due to female brain issues and i want a proper barney about ideas not this boring playground personality shite.
bimble
floofy
No bollocks.
I've researched the stats.It is a sad but true fact that men pass their driving test first time a lot more often than women (like really a lot i can't remember the numbers but it was a really significant margin).
That sort of thing interests me a lot.
I ascribe it to culture, deep gender roles stuff, (in my understanding of gender). Like i think it has to do with how I never played computer games because that was boy stuff, and my confidence is relatively low so I am overly cautious etc.
Would you ascribe the lower pass rate of biological women to innate female brains being worse at spacial reasoning and so on?
Last edited:
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
What I'm saying is that there are people all around the world who feel a mismatch between their bodies and their gender. Campaigns for trans rights don't stop at the border to Europe and North America.
You speak specifically about Bangladesh. The most cursory of google searches will bring up articles talking about trans people in Bangladesh. It really is a western conceit to suggest "those people can't possibly care about x because they have other more important things to care about." That completely erases the reality for the people who do experience those things.
And again we're back to the dishonest implication that it's not possible to talk about or care about the problems faced by both cis and trans women. Whataboutery.
You are right, though. The option to live freely as the gender you know yourself to be isn't as easy for many people as it is even here. I hope that changes.
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
No bollocks.
It is a sad but true fact that men pass their driving test first time a lot more often than women (like really a lot i can't remember the numbers but it was a really significant margin).
That sort of thing interests me a lot.
I ascribe it to culture, deep gender roles stuff, (in my understanding of gender). Like i think it has to do with how I never played computer games because that was boy stuff, and my confidence is relatively low so I am overly cautious etc.
Would you ascribe the lower pass rate of biological women to innate brains and nature type stuff?
I played computer games and still do, and have shit confidence and have never taken a driving test and hated the 7 lessons I had as a kid (by kid I mean when I was 17). I'm fucking great at computer games though.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Since on a different thread I recently made blunt and cynical remarks that questioned your motives and methods in regards discussing these subjects Athos, I shall take this opportunity to somewhat explain myself.
I recall you finding the need to claim some sort of realisation and rebirth in terms of some of your beliefs, attitudes, style of debate or whatever combo it was. But my memory has dimmed as to any real details. But at the very least it means I've probably always read your posts on this sort of thread with a degree of extra wariness and suspicion to say the very least. I just aint convinced. But nor am I especially coherent right now, so that will have to do for now.
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
Not that sort of thing, no. In my case I had a hell of a lot of lessons because I cancelled my first test as I didn't feel ready. I think male privilege plays a role yes. Boys more likely to have access to a vehicle? More likely to be taught by their father, have mates with a car? Though surely this is changing. My mum didn't drive because my dad shouted at her when he was supposed to be teaching her. Luckily he didn't teach me. My sister had access to cars from a very young age and I didn't, but maybe I was just lucky. Who knows? I don't.No bollocks.
That sort of thing interests me a lot. I ascribe it to culture, deep gender roles stuff, (in my understanding of gender). Like i think it has to do with how I never played computer games and my confidence is relatively low etc.
Would you ascribe it to biology innate brains and nature type stuff?
Get Learning to Drive Simulator.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
SeaStar just said it was bollocks.No bollocks.
It is a sad but true fact that men pass their driving test first time a lot more often than women (like really a lot i can't remember the numbers but it was a really significant margin).
That sort of thing interests me a lot.
I ascribe it to culture, deep gender roles stuff, (in my understanding of gender). Like i think it has to do with how I never played computer games because that was boy stuff, and my confidence is relatively low so I am overly cautious etc.
Would you ascribe the lower pass rate of biological women to innate brains and nature type stuff?
Anyhoo, the difference isn't huge. Yes, men pass marginally quicker than women, but the single biggest determinant is age. Far easier to pass at 17.
Men race ahead of women in driving test pass rates
Presentation of the stats in there is a bit all over the place, but at 17 the rates are 58% men, 55% women. Small difference really. Need to be a bit careful about the headline figure as men and women may not take the test at the same average age, and the failure rate goes right up with age.
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
I passed first time (aged 35) but I still take anxiety attacks if have to drive on a motorway though I ease into it after a day or so. It's a brilliant thing to do, the freedom, blasting punk tunes whilst toorin aboot etc....
(Cross thread beef- Laurie Pennie wasn't lying when she said she could tweet during attack, you can do anything you like !)
Athos
Well-Known Member
You're right to some extent. But, first that's slightly inaccurate: I explained that I'd realised that it wasn't worth debating these issues merely for philosophical curiosithy, when to do so upsets trans people; but the landscape has changed since then, this is no loger an idle question - it's becoming a pressing concern, given the potential impact on sex-based protections. And, secondly, that's not quite what VP claimed. In any event, I've tried very ard to be mindful of my tone, and to try not to say anything hurtful or disrespectful to trans people.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I'm actually rather impressed with just how many things you've confirmed there with so few words.
You never changed, you were just waiting till you found a new justification.
Well, its been fascinating.
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
I drove about twice in the 7/8 years after I passed my test, and that was in an automatic. In 97 my wife taught me to drive all over again and I absolutely refused to go on motorways for ages. Left to my own devices I probably would never have got back into driving. I was probably about 32/33 by the time I was confident enough to drive anywhere by myself.
Athos
Well-Known Member
The last line of my post is missing from your quote; it confirms what I changed. Also, I expained how the circumstances changed.
But, really, you can say believe (or claim to) what you want, though I am suspicious of the motives of those who slur those with whom they disagree, rather than engage with the content of their posts.
bimble
floofy
Nah its worse than that its way more than a 3% difference across time.
If I told the examiner that I do not identify as a woman would it help me with 4th time lucky?
To be clear, I do not think that I am suffering from having a woman-brain, less well adapted to spatial reasoning or whatever, I think that is nonsense and that the difference in these results is entirely cultural not biological.
My fail today was due to me being unlucky though, obvs.
.
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
Doesn't matter how many times I say I don't subscribe to lady brains crap it just keeps getting trotted out.Nah its worse than that its way more than a 3% difference across time.
If I told the examiner that I do not identify as a woman would it help me with 4th time lucky?
To be clear, I do not think that I am suffering from having a woman-brain, less well adapted to spatial reasoning or whatever, I think that is nonsense and that the difference in these results is entirely cultural not biological.
My fail today was due to me being unlucky though, obvs.
View attachment 125923
.
- Status
Similar threads
