Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[pengaleng]

Well yeah, when you feel something os wrong, it can be a signal that you need to change your ideas (speaking specifically about my experiences with depression).

what\? i think you misunderstood what i meant

 

[bimble]

That's not how we experience life though.

No. We live our lives with our Selves taking shape from the pressures of the people and ideas and imposed roles we’re given to play by everyone around us. Personal stuff: part of my ‘identity’, like ‘woman’, is Jew. This was taught to me from earliest childhood as a Thing that I am. But there is nothing at all intrinsically inside my ‘soul’ or my personality or brain that makes it so, it’s just something I’ve been given to carry around by society and family and history etc and now can’t opt out of in any real way. I see gender like this, imposed and learnt and tbh damaging, restrictive. You said your Mum knew she was a woman. Did this knowing come from some ineffable inner feeling about the nature of her Self or was it taught and she just adapted well to the shape society told her that woman was.

 

[pengaleng]

theres not just one self bungle but that shits a bit deep for this thread

 

[8ball]

what\? i think you misunderstood what i meant

Yeah, I think I probably did.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

theres not just one self bungle

This would be excellent if it were being discussed on Rainbow.

 

[bimble]

theres not just one self bungle but that shits a bit deep for this thread

Go deeper pengaleng, the waters lovely.

 

[pengaleng]

This would be excellent if it were being discussed on Rainbow.

you seen queer kid stuff on youtube?? lol

might help some people on here tbh

 

[8ball]

This would be excellent if it were being discussed on Rainbow.

Zippy’s introduction to nihilism was a 70s classic.

 

[pengaleng]

Go deeper pengaleng, the waters lovely.

i would but yer minge is fulla cheese

open goal

 

[bimble]

 

[Treacle Toes]

I didn’t post that arsehole’s tweet. Look again.

You are no doubt right that she’s not a major figure in radical feminism, but she is certainly a major figure in the TERF lobbying campaign against GRA refor.,

Thing is...she was worthy (to some here) of posting earlier in the thread when it was all OUTRAGE because she was asked to leave an event...she wasn't so honest about why though...she did nothing wrong but supposedly 'trigger' Lily Madison by simply being there....and then pictures like this told us what she was really up to...being a grade a, try hard, trolling twat...purposely courting conflict...taking selfies like this and enjoying making people feel uncomfortable... She is making a name for herself.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Do you have a link for this?

There’s a women’s refuge in Vancouver that famously won’t accept trans victims. It’s one of the last redoubts of Canadian TERFery and a constant flashpoint between the majority of Canadian feminists and their TERF minority. The refuge concerned doesn’t just refuse to accept trans women victims of male violence it also campaigned publicly against trans rights laws. The defunding claims are about rows within the local union federation which used to give money to that particular refuge but recently withdrew it over its anti-trans stance. The union federation still gives money to other refuges.

Many Canadian feminists, most of them not trans, campaigned to have union funding shifted to other refuges, but TERFs obviously prefer to single out a trans woman and imply she’s opposed to refuges rather than simply on the other side of a row about what kind of refuges progressive organizations should fund. Having a trans woman speak at the local women’s march is a pretty clear indication of the side of those rows the bulk of local feminists are on.

 

[Vintage Paw]

No. We live our lives with our Selves taking shape from the pressures of the people and ideas and imposed roles we’re given to play by everyone around us. Personal stuff: part of my ‘identity’, like ‘woman’, is Jew. This was taught to me from earliest childhood as a Thing that I am. But there is nothing at all intrinsically inside my ‘soul’ or my personality or brain that makes it so, it’s just something I’ve been given to carry around by society and family and history etc and now can’t opt out of in any real way. I see gender like this, imposed and learnt and tbh damaging, restrictive. You said your Mum knew she was a woman. Did this knowing come from some ineffable inner feeling about the nature of her Self or was it taught and she just adapted well to the shape society told her that woman was.

I just can't shake the feeling that all of this is a roundabout way of getting to the argument that trans women aren't women because gender isn't real but I'm still a woman because society said so.

 

[smokedout]

Many Canadian feminists, most of them not trans, campaigned to have union funding shifted to other refuges, but TERFs obviously prefer to single out a trans woman and imply she’s opposed to refuges rather than simply on the other side of a row about what kind of refuges progressive organizations should fund. Having a trans woman speak at the local women’s march is a pretty clear indication of the side of those rows the bulk of local feminists are on.

Sure, I just couldn't find any evidence beyond one unsourced tweet that this particular women was involved in that campaign.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Pretty powerful stuff from Irish feminists here

An open letter to the organisers of the “We Need to Talk Tour” from a group of feminists in Ireland
Posted by Sinéad Redmond


We write as cisgender feminists in Ireland to the organisers of the ‘We Need To Talk’ speaking tour who plan to hold an event in Ireland in February.


An open letter to the organisers of the “We Need to Talk Tour” from a group of feminists in Ireland

I’m not a fan of the “we are this, we are that” style of writing, and the decision of whoever drafted this to emphasize a peculiarly nationalist take on the north is a bit odd, but this is going to end up with a huge list of signatories. The decision of the Brit TERFs to bring their anti-trans roadshow to Dublin was always going to be seen as a provocation by backward bigots by most Irish feminist activists. As I’ve mentioned before, every feminist group and women’s rights campaign that I’m aware of here is trans inclusive and supports the self ID law.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I just can't shake the feeling that all of this is a roundabout way of getting to the argument that trans women aren't women because gender isn't real but I'm still a woman because society said so.

I don't want that cake. I HATE IT.
Give it back, it's mine, even if I don't like it. MINE!

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Sure, I just couldn't find any evidence beyond one unsourced tweet that this particular women was involved in that campaign.

I haven’t seen any evidence either, but it’s probably true that she was at least supportive of it. That was the majority stance among feminist, union and trans activists.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Because that's the line of argument spouted by some transphobic lesbians. He was adopting their language to make a point.

It’s even been the language used by some transphobes in this thread.

 

[smokedout]

So basically smokedout, you're saying once women are told to fuck off and "go do research" your opinion is that these women go directly to "hate sites"? How many women have you actually bothered asking how they came to that conclusion?

I think you are really selling women short here.

I can tell you the first thing I did was go to trans people, then liberal feminists, then academics.

This talk in particular I found very good, fair, described what I was seeing accurately and the thought's. From a university employed philosopher. It didn't come to any conclusions specifically other than point out some logical inconsistencies.



(she will probably will just be accused of TERFERY, too)

So for you to talk of women coming to the conclusion they do because they can't research properly, and OBVIOUSLY can't understand the difference between information and disinformation is uncharitable at best and sexist at worst.

We aren't fucking idiots. And it doesn't go the way you describe at all.

I've watched this now. It strikes me as pretty disingenuous. The bulk of her argument seems to be that gender identity is not a thing because it's not something she experiences and she can't find a definition for it that satisfies her. She then goes on to describe what could appear to be gender identity based on socialisation when she talks about the pink and blue boxes and concedes that not only does she better fit the pink box but she realises some people born biologically male might also feel they fit better into that box, and some people assigned female in the blue box. Her answer to trans people is why not destroy the boxes, yet she has a box, and it seems an unfair burden to place on trans people that they must destroy the gender binary, something radical feminism has failed to do, rather than just get on with their lives the same way she has.

It gets more dubious when she hints at reparation therapy. Initially she makes the (largely straw man) claim that trans people claim gender identity is fixed and unchangeable, something she claims to rejct. Then she goes ha, but what about gender fluid or non binary people, gender idenity can't be unchangeable. This strikes me as her really just inventing what she thinks trans people think to fit her critique. She ducks whether she actually supports reparative therapy and ignores gender dysphoria pretty much completely. Which really renders what she's saying incomplete. She makes a couple of mildly interesting point but when you deconstuct it I felt there wasn't as much there as appears on the surface and I can't say I was particularly impressed with her analysis.

 

[Athos]

And a fifth time you've dodged a very straightforward question. You made the claim that the transphobes in this argument were making "valid" points that weren't being listened to. Asking you for an example of such a "valid" but not listened to point is not unreasonable or a mean trick. You either can't think of one, which undermines your both sides need to be listened to handwringing, or you don't have the backbone to tie yourself to any of their opinions that you agree with.

It's a bit rich to make loads of posts refusing to debate this issue, preferring to call women bigots, instead, and then to demand that they engage substantively with you when it suits.

But I'll give you an example of a valid concern that's not only not listened to, but in respect of which women are shut down by men like you. And that's the concern that feminism is being directed away from those issues which are most fundamental to vast majority of women (i.e. biological matters such as reproductive health), in favour of those issues that are of particular interest to that tiny minority of women with male biology, who were socialised as boys and men.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But I'll give you an example of a valid concern that's not only not listened to, but in respect of which women are shut down by men like you. And that's the concern that feminism is being directed away from those issues which are most fundamental to vast majority of women (i.e. biological matters such as reproductive health), in favour of those issues that are of particular interest to that tiny minority of women with male biology, who were socialised as boys and men.

One would have thought that this would be especially pertinent in Ireland, given the ongoing struggle there over reproductive rights. And yet...

We can see from your social media posts about your tour and its contents, that your opposition to the GRA is based on the idea that feminist organising and women’s rights will somehow be harmed through trans inclusivity and organising with our trans sisters. We know this is not true. We, the signatories of this letter, organise hand in hand with our trans sisters. Together, cis and trans, we are Irish feminism. Trans women are our sisters; their struggles are ours, our struggles theirs. They were our sisters before any state-issued certification said so and will always be no matter what any legislation says, either now or in the future.

An open letter to the organisers of the “We Need to Talk Tour” from a group of feminists in Ireland

 

[Treacle Toes]

 

[Vintage Paw]

It's a bit rich to make loads of posts refusing to debate this issue, preferring to call women bigots, instead, and then to demand that they engage substantively with you when it suits.

But I'll give you an example of a valid concern that's not only not listened to, but in respect of which women are shut down by men like you. And that's the concern that feminism is being directed away from those issues which are most fundamental to vast majority of women (i.e. biological matters such as reproductive health), in favour of those issues that are of particular interest to that tiny minority of women with male biology, who were socialised as boys and men.

Here we are again saying that it's the bad men who are stopping the women from speaking, completely ignoring that women like me take issue with transphobic arguments as well.

In fact I spent some time previously on this thread talking about why it's absolute balderdash to suggest that equality for trans people means issues that affect cis women will be sidelined or done away with altogether.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Here we are again saying that it's the bad men who are stopping the women from speaking, completely ignoring that women like me take issue with transphobic arguments as well.

See my screenshot above...the men, those BAD ones...stopping the women being heard/listened to. Right. Bit fucking rich indeed.

 

[bimble]

I just can't shake the feeling that all of this is a roundabout way of getting to the argument that trans women aren't women because gender isn't real but I'm still a woman because society said so.

I don't want that cake. I HATE IT.
Give it back, it's mine, even if I don't like it. MINE!

Basically yes. Spot on.

I am a member of the category 'woman', I didn't choose it but there it is. I do not like the things that society says belong to the category of woman, a bunch of roles and expectations, or the way we are treated as a result of those gender roles, or the history that got us here, as a result of our reproductive class, but also do not feel that I can opt out of it in any meaningful way by 'identifying' as something else.

 

[Athos]

One would have thought that this would be especially pertinent in Ireland, given the ongoing struggle there over reproductive rights. And yet...



An open letter to the organisers of the “We Need to Talk Tour” from a group of feminists in Ireland

I've already argued that any discussion should include a measured consideration of the evidence of the Irish experience (albeit that it had its limitations - small sample size, too early to know full effects etc.). But men like Nigel refuse to discuss it; they have decided that women's concerns aren't valid, and so dismiss them ad TERFs.

 

[Athos]

See my screenshot above...the men, those BAD ones...stopping the women being heard/listened to. Right. Bit fucking rich indeed.

Are you suggesting that I've tried to stop any woman being heard? Because I haven't.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Basically yes. Spot on.

I am a member of the category 'woman', I didn't choose it but there it is. I do not like the things that society says beloing to category of woman, or the way we are treated, but also do not feel that I can opt out of it.

At least you're being honest.

No one is asking you to opt out of it.

The problem here is that you see trans people as deciding to opt in or out of something. Like it's a whimsical choice. For the heck of it.

 

[Vintage Paw]

I've already argued that any discussion should include a measured consideration of the evidence of the Irish experience (albeit that it had its limitations - small sample size, too early to know full effects etc.). But men like Nigel refuse to discuss it; they have decided that women's concerns aren't valid, and so dismiss them ad TERFs.

Women have opinions too, Athos. Nigel isn't the only person speaking on this, but his is the only voice you're willing to notice. Why do you ignore women, Athos?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

But I'll give you an example of a valid concern that's not only not listened to, but in respect of which women are shut down by men like you. And that's the concern that feminism is being directed away from those issues which are most fundamental to vast majority of women (i.e. biological matters such as reproductive health), in favour of those issues that are of particular interest to that tiny minority of women with male biology, who were socialised as boys and men.

That’s not a “valid concern”, it’s zero sum horseshit that assumes that solidarity with those with overlapping but not identical concerns wastes energy rather than creating a stronger movement on all fronts. As you are no doubt aware, the feminist movement in Ireland has a very large mobilizing capacity (it can put more people on the street than any other social movement by a distance) and it has a primary, even overwhelming, focus on issues of reproductive health. Supporting trans rights hasn’t negatively impacted that movement in any way and has helped it develop mutual solidarity with lgbt movements. The only reason why trans issues can be viewed as a distraction in Britain is because an obsessively anti trans minority of bigots keep creating rows about the subject. Where such bigots are completely marginal that hasn’t happened. That open letter is a response to those bigots in Britain trying to create similar rows here.