Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Nigel Irritable]

I'm glad you've noticed that that's the third or fourth time I've suggested you read the thread because I'm kind of bored repeating myself.

...

And a fifth time you've dodged a very straightforward question. You made the claim that the transphobes in this argument were making "valid" points that weren't being listened to. Asking you for an example of such a "valid" but not listened to point is not unreasonable or a mean trick. You either can't think of one, which undermines your both sides need to be listened to handwringing, or you don't have the backbone to tie yourself to any of their opinions that you agree with.

 

[smokedout]

What's your point elbows? Pilgrim Tucker is a horrid meanie so that makes it ok to collate her personal information for purposes of getting her expelled from a political party?

If this was someone collecting information on misogynists or racists in the Labour Party would they be facing this line of attack?

Pretty powerful stuff from Irish feminists here

An open letter to the organisers of the “We Need to Talk Tour” from a group of feminists in Ireland
Posted by Sinéad Redmond


We write as cisgender feminists in Ireland to the organisers of the ‘We Need To Talk’ speaking tour who plan to hold an event in Ireland in February.


An open letter to the organisers of the “We Need to Talk Tour” from a group of feminists in Ireland

Venice won't care

 

[Sea Star]

Venice won't care
]

Maybe not but it sure punctures the lie that this is all about men attacking or silencing women.

And it sure punctures the lie that all feminists agree with the extremist transphobia coming from TERFs.

 

[bimble]

Nigel Irritable why did you post that silly tweet by ‘dr rad’?
I think she’s an idiot and she’s by no means any kind of important figure in gender critical feminism is she.
That weird nationalist sounding tweet though was a response to someone right on who was saying ‘why are English women always so ugly like you’. So anyway, why post it it’s totally irrelevant to anything at all.

 

[Pickman's model]

Excellent, and I love it when the Irish Gaelic translates perfectly to us Scottish Gaels, arms across the sea.

Not sure when the Scots have sent weapons to the Irish

 

[Treacle Toes]

She is

If this was someone collecting information on misogynists or racists in the Labour Party would they be facing this line of attack?


Venice won't care

fucking batshit.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Nigel Irritable why did you post that silly tweet by ‘dr rad’?
I think she’s an idiot and she’s by no means any kind of important figure in gender critical feminism is she.

I believe she is, you know. She's an organiser of the 'We Need to Talk' thing that the open letter above is rejecting.

 

[bimble]

="Vintage Paw, post: 15410562, member: 11698] For me, 'everyone having a gender identity' is no different to before. I said my mum always knew she was a woman. That's no different to someone knowing they're a trans woman, or someone knowing they're nb. The only new thing about it is the willingness for people to be open about it and to be accepted.

So everyone here has a Gender Identity but some of us just haven’t figured out what it is yet, unlike your mum?
If your Mum had been given the option to identify as nb would her life have been different ?

 

[Pickman's model]

So everyone here has a Gender Identity but some of us just haven’t figured it out yet, unlike your mum?
If your Mum had been given the option to identify as nb would her life have been different ?

Yes

If you're going to use abbreviations why not try explaining them as other nbs are available

 

[bimble]

Yes

How so. What is your Gender Identity o Pickman's model and why?

(I was just copying vintage paw’s parlance, with Nb as shorthand for any number of flavours of ‘non binary’.)
I think I’ve made it clear earlier that I find the whole notion bizarre as it seems to me every 3D human is ‘non binary’.

 

[Pickman's model]

How so. What is your Gender Identity o Pickman's model and why?

None of your business, because it's not something I think you're genuinely interested in.

 

[bimble]

None of your business, because it's not something I think you're genuinely interested in.

Ok great, fair enough, but maybe refrain then from telling me what my Gender Identity is.

 

[Vintage Paw]

So everyone here has a Gender Identity but some of us just haven’t figured out what it is yet, unlike your mum?
If your Mum had been given the option to identify as nb would her life have been different ?

I think what I'm getting at is that what you're calling a gender identity is oftentimes just a willingness, or a comfortableness, in saying "I am x" just as it has always been comfortable for cis men and cis women to say "I am a man/woman." In the past everyone else has had to either say I am a woman/man while knowing inside that's not quite right, but now it's more acceptable to say "actually, that isn't quite right, I am x." It's not a new invention or adoption of gender identities, but rather saying I am x is exactly the same as anyone in the past who said I am a woman. It's seen as different because for a long time the binary was received wisdom.

 

[bimble]

So I can say I’m not a woman, I’m x instead. What changes as a result?
I don’t look any different (as gender presentation is a separate thing you said). Do I get treated differently by society? What difference does it it make to anything at all how I identify?

 

[Pickman's model]

Ok great, fair enough, but maybe refrain then from telling me what my Gender Identity is.

Yeh. If you bothered explaining what your abbreviations meant (as I've already said but you didn't bother reading) this sort of thing might not happen. Btw gender identity not a proper noun so no need for caps.

 

[Pickman's model]

So I can say I’m not a woman, I’m x instead. What changes as a result?

Many people's attitude to you as so many people have been saying on the thread. Did you think about this before you posted it?

 

[Mation]

And a fifth time you've dodged a very straightforward question. You made the claim that the transphobes in this argument were making "valid" points that weren't being listened to. Asking you for an example of such a "valid" but not listened to point is not unreasonable or a mean trick. You either can't think of one, which undermines your both sides need to be listened to handwringing, or you don't have the backbone to tie yourself to any of their opinions that you agree with.

Your posts with the questions are there for anyone reading to see and the answers or lack thereof are also there to see along with the interpretation(s) of that. Probably not much mileage in just asking again.

 

[bimble]

Many people's attitude to you as all the trans people have been saying on the thread. Did you think about this before you posted it?

Whose attitude will change as a result of me just declaring that I am not a woman I’m x instead. Not the people who make being a woman hard work sometimes. Nothing changes in the real world as a result of me individually in my head ‘opting out’ of the category woman.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think what I'm getting at is that what you're calling a gender identity is oftentimes just a willingness, or a comfortableness, in saying "I am x" just as it has always been comfortable for cis men and cis women to say "I am a man/woman." In the past everyone else has had to either say I am a woman/man while knowing inside that's not quite right, but now it's more acceptable to say "actually, that isn't quite right, I am x." It's not a new invention or adoption of gender identities, but rather saying I am x is exactly the same as anyone in the past who said I am a woman. It's seen as different because for a long time the binary was received wisdom.

Yep, that's my understanding of what is meant by this stuff. Important to say as well, though, for clarity, that there's a difference between being comfortable saying 'I'm a man/woman' and being comfortable with the gendered expectations that come with that. The former does not necessarily imply the latter.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Not sure when the Scots have sent weapons to the Irish

It's in the post.

 

[Vintage Paw]

So I can say I’m not a woman, I’m x instead. What changes as a result?
I don’t look any different (as gender presentation is a separate thing you said). Do I get treated differently by society? What difference does it it make to anything at all how I identify?

You probably feel more comfortable.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

None of your business, because it's not something I think you're genuinely interested in.

Tell me then! *interested stare*

 

[Mation]

Whose attitude will change as a result of me just declaring that I am not a woman I’m x instead. Not the people who make being a woman hard work sometimes.

The person themselves who can finally stop having to put on a constant facade? Friends who will believe them and support them? Actual intersectional feminists? That would be a good start, no?

 

[bimble]

The person themselves who can finally stop having to put on a constant facade? Friends who will believe them and support them? Actual intersectional feminists? That would be a good start, no?

And that’s the way forward for feminism is it? Being able to opt out of the class called women and saying I’m x now and your friends believing you.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Yep, that's my understanding of what is meant by this stuff. Important to say as well, though, for clarity, that there's a difference between being comfortable saying 'I'm a man/woman' and being comfortable with the gendered expectations that come with that. The former does not necessarily imply the latter.

Of course. That's the difference between gender, gender presentation, and gender roles. They often all get conflated, and it's why we hear a lot of stuff like "just because a boy likes girly stuff doesn't mean he's a trans girl, just let him be a boy" when in fact a cis boy can like 'girly stuff', a trans girl can like girly stuff, a trans boy can like girly stuff, a cis girl can like girly stuff...

It leads to some bonkers stuff, with feminist transphobes often arguing for freedom of gender presentation and gender roles ("girls can be engineers and wear combat boots; boys can be dancers and play with dolls; girls can wear pink, girls can wear blue, boys can wear camo, boys can wear sparkles") but getting angry when trans women want to wear lipstick.

 

[Sea Star]

Yep, that's my understanding of what is meant by this stuff. Important to say as well, though, for clarity, that there's a difference between being comfortable saying 'I'm a man/woman' and being comfortable with the gendered expectations that come with that. The former does not necessarily imply the latter.

Lots of trans women aren't happy with the gendered expectations that come with being a woman, however, by not being a complete stereotype we often are accused of not being women.

 

[bimble]

What is the difference between gender and gender roles?

 

[Mation]

And that’s the way forward for feminism is it? Being able to opt out of the class called women and saying I’m x now and your friends believing you.

You're right, albeit unintentionally. I didn't take account of the fact that in your post that I was replying to, you talked about people 'just' declaring themselves a woman, implying that it would be a whim, when, of course, it wouldn't be.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And that’s the way forward for feminism is it? Being able to opt out of the class called women and saying I’m x now and your friends believing you.

If that's genuinely how a person feels, then that's the way forward for everyone, no? Why wouldn't it be? I only know one person who self-defines as non-binary - a natal woman who sometimes presents as a man, other times as a woman, who varies in which pronoun they prefer to use. I don't pretend to understand - but I don't need to to be able to respect them and how they want to be. It's certainly not my place to insist that they jump into boxes for my benefit.

 

[bimble]

You're right, albeit unintentionally. I didn't take account of the fact that in your post that I was replying to, you talked about people 'just' declaring themselves a woman, implying that it would be a whim, when, of course, it wouldn't be.

I was talking about declaring oneself not a woman but x instead (non binary, of whatever kind). So feminism is basically over, there’s no need, as we can just opt out of the class called women and patriarchy will die as a result. Cool.