elbows
Well-Known Member
I have no issue with people taking that approach, although I do think the relationship between 'real life' and things said on the internet is rather closer than some give it credit for.
Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?
- Thread starter The Flying Pig
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I have no issue with people taking that approach, although I do think the relationship between 'real life' and things said on the internet is rather closer than some give it credit for.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Speaking of Tuckers tweets, I'd be interested in whether any of the people who think misgendering is acceptable, think the use of pre-transition names are equally acceptable?
Tucker didnt go on about Liam instead of Lily, but they had no problem retweeting someone who did. It was in reply to one of Tuckers tweets about the list, and they retweeted it to draw attention to it.
Tucker didnt go on about Liam instead of Lily, but they had no problem retweeting someone who did. It was in reply to one of Tuckers tweets about the list, and they retweeted it to draw attention to it.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Each side becomes ever more convinced of the righteousness of their cause by the actions of the other side.
Treacle Toes
Time
Personal data in this case means her name and proof of her 'terfy' comments doesn't it? All one need do is look at her twitter feed and screen shot given what is seen as 'terf' comment. She is not being doxxed as all this talk of a hate list and personal information implies.
spanglechick posted earlier about each side laying traps for one another. That is spot on. Both in what is being said and how people are interpreting/representing the others positions.
spanglechick posted earlier about each side laying traps for one another. That is spot on. Both in what is being said and how people are interpreting/representing the others positions.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I note your use of the term 'horrid meanie' just as I noted but did not respond to trashponys use of 'people who have no fucking skin'.
It seems to me that these attempts to downplay abuse would have been condemned if used to excuse racism or sexism, and I dont see why they should be any more acceptable when used in the face of other forms of prejudice.
As for your question, political parties and purges are a messy business, I'm still learning about this case and I'm sure as usual there are some sensible stances from several sides to be found at times beneath the hate. Slightly more broadly it should be fairly obvious that the level of revulsion I feel towards some of the language and attitudes on display means I favour consigning some hate-filled fringes much further to the margins.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
What exactly is wrong with Labour Party members trying to get people who raised funds to sue the Labour Party to strip an oppressed minority of a right thrown out of their party?
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
That’s the third of fourth time now that you’ve point blank refused to say which views expressed by transphobes on this thread you think are “valid” but aren’t being listened to. You like to engage in pious posturing about how both sides need to be listened to, but you pretty clearly don’t want to tie yourself to any of the supposedly “valid” views transphobes are putting forward.
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Mation
real life adventure worth more than pieces of gold
She's being really fucking outrageously awful on Facebook too
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
If someone wants to make a complaint about a party member's behaviour that is the information they would need. What's the problem? That the complaint shouldn't be made?
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
Then we need new maps. A transgender person is murdered every 3 days worldwide. Other grim statistics have been offered before upthread. Of course if you read some of the more questionable stuff on tumblr-some of which to me seems to be folks from the Furry scene of old appropriating the term trans anyway - you could be forgiven for thinking this issue is easily ignored, assuming you were living in a box prior to 2014. But this would be ignoring the sheer magnitude of what the average transgender person experiences whilst transitioning-whether physically, socially, culturally etc-from one identity to another. The idea that this group of millions of marginalised people are just going to accept no legal protections and fade away seems to me to be entirely at odds with critical thinking anyway. This phenomenon is not new, it isn't a first world luxury, and for most it is certainly not a trivial matter of "thinking up a gender".
jah, and I personally won't have time to keep up with the lefts movers and shakers until i am well into my forties.
This may be no bad thing!
Perhaps the topic of Smokedouts sex life really was worth exploring, since none of the critical thinking feminists seemed particularly disturbed by that particular contribution. I am no academic.
Bit in bold would be my main problem with intersectionalist theory aye, if only it was possible to have these discussions with both parties taking each other at face value and in good faith
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
Identity's a bit like the communist using an iphone thing.
We can rail all we like about people basing some or even all of their activism and/or political awareness around identity but the truth remains that identity is a part of how we experience the world. A lot of that is down to how capitalism constructs us, and how we construct ourselves in response to it, but it's perfectly possible—in fact necessary—to recognise the relationship between capitalism (and class) and identities, to be critical of that relationship, and work in ways that take account of how we live within that system. Identity is a reality. That it's constructed doesn't make it any less real.
And the thing about class as an identity: class is a system first and foremost, but it is also an identity because of the way it has been constructed as one. The problem comes when the idea of it as an identity supplants the understanding of it as a system, and it requires constant work to keep grounding it in those terms. But one thing I think a lot of class-aware people do is think everyone who is engaging in any kind of progressive or leftwing politics should be 100% up to speed the moment they begin. It doesn't work like that. I spend time on tumblr. I've said before, over the years I've seen a distinct shift from solely 'identity politics' (of which there are various types, some far more conscious than others), towards class awareness. In some cases that class aspect is treated like another string of identity politics, but there are also good conversations discussing it in ways even the staunchest of gits on here would approve of. In large part that's been fuelled by Bernie Sanders' popularity, the rise of the DSA, and a subsection of more visible socialists and communists on social media (many of whom are people of colour). I feel largely positive about tumblr, because while there's a fuckton of absolute shite, it's also exposing a huge number of teens and young adults to leftwing politics that, sure, doesn't always have a perfect analysis but is the beginning of a journey.
(I'm aware Sanders etc seats this in American politics, but when we talk about identity politics it's impossible to ignore the influence of American politics.)
We can rail all we like about people basing some or even all of their activism and/or political awareness around identity but the truth remains that identity is a part of how we experience the world. A lot of that is down to how capitalism constructs us, and how we construct ourselves in response to it, but it's perfectly possible—in fact necessary—to recognise the relationship between capitalism (and class) and identities, to be critical of that relationship, and work in ways that take account of how we live within that system. Identity is a reality. That it's constructed doesn't make it any less real.
And the thing about class as an identity: class is a system first and foremost, but it is also an identity because of the way it has been constructed as one. The problem comes when the idea of it as an identity supplants the understanding of it as a system, and it requires constant work to keep grounding it in those terms. But one thing I think a lot of class-aware people do is think everyone who is engaging in any kind of progressive or leftwing politics should be 100% up to speed the moment they begin. It doesn't work like that. I spend time on tumblr. I've said before, over the years I've seen a distinct shift from solely 'identity politics' (of which there are various types, some far more conscious than others), towards class awareness. In some cases that class aspect is treated like another string of identity politics, but there are also good conversations discussing it in ways even the staunchest of gits on here would approve of. In large part that's been fuelled by Bernie Sanders' popularity, the rise of the DSA, and a subsection of more visible socialists and communists on social media (many of whom are people of colour). I feel largely positive about tumblr, because while there's a fuckton of absolute shite, it's also exposing a huge number of teens and young adults to leftwing politics that, sure, doesn't always have a perfect analysis but is the beginning of a journey.
(I'm aware Sanders etc seats this in American politics, but when we talk about identity politics it's impossible to ignore the influence of American politics.)
bimble
floofy
This is a really helpful thoughtful post. I completely get that having to prove you're 'living as a woman' imposes conformity of gender presentation on trans people who are going through the current system.
But when you say "In many ways, gender identity is separate to gender presentation for a huge amount of younger people, which is presumably what we should be pleased about" I don't really follow.
Are you suggesting that lets say 'cis women' dressing butch is somehow new? Because it's not, obviously. As far as I can tell what's new is the idea that everyone has this thing called a Gender Identity.
You say that "a whole range of younger people don't conform to binary gender presentations regardless of their gender and whether they are trans, cis, nb or intersex." I love it that people are skewing gender presentation, have always been a fan of boys wearing eyeshadow and girls wearing suits and buzzcuts etc, all of that is great I agree, but what's happening now that is different is that all of this (basically clothes, hairstyles, interests and mannerisms or whatever) has become somehow to do with having a Gender Identity, picking your spot on the Gender Identity spectrum and if you aren't Barbie then you must be one of the flavours of 'non binary' / fluid (under the trans umbrella even if no dysphoria).
Maybe I should ignore what people say and just rejoice in their playing with clothes etc, but that's not really what's going on. Like my 'desisting' ex-trans cousin, she wasn't dressing as a boy during those couple of years but was saying I am a boy.
Where does young people wanting to change their bodies to fit their Gender Identity fit with the idea that gender norms are being skewed by this 'DIY revolution' and the rules of what is feminine and masculine being eroded?
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HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
Identity's a bit like the communist using an iphone thing.
We can rail all we like about people basing some or even all of their activism and/or political awareness around identity but the truth remains that identity is a part of how we experience the world. A lot of that is down to how capitalism constructs us, and how we construct ourselves in response to it, but it's perfectly possible—in fact necessary—to recognise the relationship between capitalism (and class) and identities, to be critical of that relationship, and work in ways that take account of how we live within that system. Identity is a reality. That it's constructed doesn't make it any less real.
And the thing about class as an identity: class is a system first and foremost, but it is also an identity because of the way it has been constructed as one. The problem comes when the idea of it as an identity supplants the understanding of it as a system, and it requires constant work to keep grounding it in those terms. But one thing I think a lot of class-aware people do is think everyone who is engaging in any kind of progressive or leftwing politics should be 100% up to speed the moment they begin. It doesn't work like that. I spend time on tumblr. I've said before, over the years I've seen a distinct shift from solely 'identity politics' (of which there are various types, some far more conscious than others), towards class awareness. In some cases that class aspect is treated like another string of identity politics, but there are also good conversations discussing it in ways even the staunchest of gits on here would approve of. In large part that's been fuelled by Bernie Sanders' popularity, the rise of the DSA, and a subsection of more visible socialists and communists on social media (many of whom are people of colour). I feel largely positive about tumblr, because while there's a fuckton of absolute shite, it's also exposing a huge number of teens and young adults to leftwing politics that, sure, doesn't always have a perfect analysis but is the beginning of a journey.
(I'm aware Sanders etc seats this in American politics, but when we talk about identity politics it's impossible to ignore the influence of American politics.)
Exactly, bit in bold is spot on. I meant to include something about the hopelessness of everyone being so bloody dogmatic and that whilst I disagree with the the notion of class as an identity much of what Mation out forward still holds true and it would seem both pointless and unhelpful to argue otherwise, but I was making the tea at the time!/
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
I'll never be up to speed on all this theory, to the point that my level of confidence that I can even engage in the debate fluctuates daily. I see this hampering people who don't use the likes of Tumblr at all, or those who haven't heard of the bookfair, have no idea who these Labour dudes are etc etc It is a big problem.
I'm glad you've noticed that that's the third or fourth time I've suggested you read the thread because I'm kind of bored repeating myself.
If you ever do, it might be an idea to do so with a bit of an open mind -- if someone queries something or doesn't agree with everything you say, that does not automatically make them suspect or a transphobe. I'd have thought that was pretty obvious but you don't really seem to have grasped that point.
I'm going to leave this here as I really can't see us getting anywhere and life really is too short...
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
"picking your spot on the Gender Identity spectrum and if you aren't Barbie then you must be one of the flavours of 'non binary' / fluid (under the trans umbrella even if no dysphoria)" -- That's not happening though. My post was to point out that's not happening. The claim was that young people are equating presentation with identity (hence the woman = lipstick comment), and my post was to explain that young people feel largely comfortable just being a boy or just being a girl and presenting in any way they want and in ways that might be at odds with what traditionally we might expect (lipstick on a boy, etc). That was my point about "whether they are trans, cis, nb or intersex". They do not think "I like lipstick, I must be nb." They think "I like lipstick."
But the thing about everyone now having a gender identity. Well, I prefer to think of it as everyone feeling comfortable talking about gender. My mum always knew she was a woman. My dad always knew he was a man. There are trans women who've always known they were a woman. The difference now is that we have a more accepting society whereby people don't feel they have to hide that. That doesn't mean "omg everyone's inventing gender identities" but rather "wow, isn't it great people feel comfortable to say "I'm a woman/man/nb" where previously they weren't?"
But even if it was the case that presentation is being linked with gender identities. So what? Why must it be fixed and set in stone? The gender critical feminists who want to abolish the idea of gender should surely be excited about this: playing with the idea of gender identity suggests it's not fixed, emphasises that it's a construction, recognises there are different ways in which gender is constructed and reconstructed, and that ultimately it doesn't matter. It's the insistence that someone must adhere to a specific category (based on sex) that causes harm. There's a whole swathe of young people who are throwing all of that up in the air and shouting "who the fuck cares?" It's when we tell them "but I care, you should know what you are and that should align with these pre-designed categories" that fucks things up.
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
That's a problem with any kind of discussion surely?
bimble
floofy
Vintage Paw I think we're talking past eachother. You say that what's happening now is great because "playing with the idea of gender identity suggests it's not fixed, emphasises that it's a construction, recognises there are different ways in which gender is constructed and reconstructed, and that ultimately it doesn't matter."
I think the opposite is happening, I think gender seems to matter greatly to young people now, with the advent of the concept of everyone having a Gender Identity. When people are identifying their inner selves as a particular Gender Identity, that makes the whole thing real and fixed and internal in a way diametrically opposed to the idea that its socially constructed, mutable and a load of oppressive nonsense enforced from outside. What do you make of the attempts to show, with science, that trans-ness might be biological?
I think the opposite is happening, I think gender seems to matter greatly to young people now, with the advent of the concept of everyone having a Gender Identity. When people are identifying their inner selves as a particular Gender Identity, that makes the whole thing real and fixed and internal in a way diametrically opposed to the idea that its socially constructed, mutable and a load of oppressive nonsense enforced from outside. What do you make of the attempts to show, with science, that trans-ness might be biological?
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
I see what you mean. I disagree though. For me, 'everyone having a gender identity' is no different to before. I said my mum always knew she was a woman. That's no different to someone knowing they're a trans woman, or someone knowing they're nb. The only new thing about it is the willingness for people to be open about it and to be accepted.
bimble
floofy
How am i supposed to know if I'm a woman or nb?
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
I think that sort of question can be filed under the same heading as this:
In seriousness though, that's really hard to define. say I was to keep insisting you were a man, would this inspire any sort of strong feelings or would you be completely dispassionate about it?
bimble
floofy
When I first came here (u75) people called me he a lot, just as a default assumption, and I enjoyed it and didn’t correct anyone for quite a while but knew/felt that ‘he’ was not correct. What does that mean ? Is that some kind of answer to am I a woman or Nb?
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
I can't answer that but was just encouraging an exploration into what a strong sense of gender might feel like, as a cis person because I am not constantly being told I am a gender that i don't believe I am, it means I hadn't put much thought into it. But now I have, cis seems acceptable to me. As you hadn't really put your feelings forward at all I was interested to know what they wereWhen I first came here (u75) people called me he a lot, just as a default assumption, and I enjoyed it and didn’t correct anyone for quite a while but knew/felt that ‘he’ was not correct. What does that mean ? Is that some kind of answer to am I a woman or Nb?
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
Pretty powerful stuff from Irish feminists here
An open letter to the organisers of the “We Need to Talk Tour” from a group of feminists in Ireland
Posted by Sinéad Redmond
We write as cisgender feminists in Ireland to the organisers of the ‘We Need To Talk’ speaking tour who plan to hold an event in Ireland in February.
An open letter to the organisers of the “We Need to Talk Tour” from a group of feminists in Ireland
An open letter to the organisers of the “We Need to Talk Tour” from a group of feminists in Ireland
Posted by Sinéad Redmond
We write as cisgender feminists in Ireland to the organisers of the ‘We Need To Talk’ speaking tour who plan to hold an event in Ireland in February.
An open letter to the organisers of the “We Need to Talk Tour” from a group of feminists in Ireland
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You're an nbWhen I first came here (u75) people called me he a lot, just as a default assumption, and I enjoyed it and didn’t correct anyone for quite a while but knew/felt that ‘he’ was not correct. What does that mean ? Is that some kind of answer to am I a woman or Nb?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
We need to talk makes them sound all preachy from the off tbh
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
Excellent, and I love it when the Irish Gaelic translates perfectly to us Scottish Gaels, arms across the sea.
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