Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[8ball]

Usually when we want to find out why transphobes are transphobic, why homophobes are homophobic, why racists are racist, why sexists are sexist, it's so we can use that knowledge to change society so people don't become transphobic, homophobic, racist, or sexist. So yes, perhaps it is useful to understand why trashpony is transphobic. It would help us move forward to a better world.

IMO some transphobia arises from a fear that resources that feminists have fought for to redress patriarchal oppressions could be co-opted by men if the only barrier to accessing those resources is identification.

Edit: though this kind of co-option could also be seen as a threat to trans women

 

[Mation]

And also calls those it deems not oppressed ‘privileged’ based on what identity boxes they tick. Sounds like the perfect tool for building cross-class solidarity.

No, that's a misunderstanding. It recognises that there is privilege but it doesn't apply, as you suggest, solely to those who are not oppressed. For example, I'm a black, bisexual woman with a disability (a specific learning difficulty) and am marginalised on those fronts. I also have cis privilege, able-bodied privilege, some class privilege in terms of my accent and education, the privilege of living in a familiar culture and so on. The experience of marginalisation I have helps me to understand the marginalisation of people oppressed on different or overlapping fronts to me. I think the misunderstanding comes from thinking that having privilege means (people think) you've never had to struggle for anything. And, to be fair, the term privilege is obviously also applied to people who are just massively wealthy or fortunate etc.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

No, that's a misunderstanding. It recognises that there is privilege but it doesn't apply, as you suggest, solely to those who are not oppressed. For example, I'm a black, bisexual woman with a disability (a specific learning difficulty) and am marginalised on those fronts. I also have cis privilege, able-bodied privilege, some class privilege in terms of my accent and education, the privilege of living in a familiar culture and so on. The experience of marginalisation I have helps me to understand the marginalisation of people oppressed on different or overlapping fronts to me. I think the misunderstanding comes from thinking that having privilege means (people think) you've never had to struggle for anything. And, to be fair, the term privilege is obviously also applied to people who are just massively wealthy or fortunate etc.

What does it have to say about Capitalism?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

And also calls those it deems not oppressed ‘privileged’ based on what identity boxes they tick. Sounds like the perfect tool for building solidarity across the class.

Privilege theory and intersectionality are often mixed together by both proponents and opponents, along with other things like standpoint epistemology, call out culture etc. But that’s a result of particular political subcultures adopting a mixture of these things, not something inherent to them. There’s nothing in intersectionality as a framework that relies on privilege theory, or vice versa.

 

[Mation]

What does it have to say about Capitalism?

Directly? Nothing. But Capitalism obviously results in a shed load of the oppression (and privilege) recognised in intersectional analyses. It's not in conflict with class analysis. However, I said 'causes' of oppression in my previous post where I could probably have better said 'grounds for'.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

You may have read them but you patently haven't listened to the concerns raised. Thus far you've shown no interest in debating (and have even said so a number of times) or in the views of anyone who doesn't agree with you so I'm not too sure why you're suddenly so keen. Personally, after 200+ pages of this, I've absolutely lost the will.

Whether you agree with @trashpony’s comments or not (and as i said i don't ) it might be informative if you tried to find out why she made them.

You are the one claiming that there is something valid in the arguments of the transphobes that isn’t being listened to. Yet you seem to be having real difficulty in finding a single example of an argument from them that you are willing to assign validity to that isn’t being listened to. And yet again you are refusing to say whether you think trashpony’s remarks are bigoted, which is surely a very straightforward question.

As for why trashpony made those comments, she made them because she’s a supporter of a particular fringe ideology which is deeply hostile to trans people for allegedly feminist reasons. I really don’t care how she personally ended up supporting that ideology, but I’ve posted at some length here about where TERFery or “gender critical feminism” comes from as a mini movement.

 

[Sue]

You are the one claiming that there is something valid in the arguments of the transphobes that isn’t being listened to. Yet you seem to be having real difficulty in finding a single example of an argument from them that you are willing to assign validity to that isn’t being listened to. And yet again you are refusing to say whether you think trashpony’s remarks are bigoted, which is surely a very straightforward question.

As for why trashpony made those comments, she made them because she’s a supporter of a particular fringe ideology which is deeply hostile to trans people for allegedly feminist reasons. I really don’t care how she personally ended up supporting that ideology, but I’ve posted at some length here about where TERFery or “gender critical feminism” comes from as a mini movement.

After 200 pages of this, you want a debate having refused to do so up until now? You're a bit late to the discussion party. Given you've repeatedly ignored/dismissed what people have been saying, it also strikes me as being a spectacular waste of my time. If you're interested in my views, I suggest you go back and read the thread.

As to why trashpony made those comments, why not ask rather than ascribing motives to her that may or may not be true?

You say you don't care how she arrived at her views. Maybe you should. You might learn something. And surely it's always useful to know what the 'other side' are thinking.

 

[Humberto]

Mad thread.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

After 200 pages of this, you want a debate having refused to do so up until now?

I’m not interested in debating the merits of transphobia with committed transphobes. As you insist you aren’t a transphobe, you have no reason to believe that statement applies to you. It seems though that you are trying to avoid tying yourself to any particular opinion here - you want to pander to transphobes, want them to be listened to, say that some of their arguments are valid and go out of your way to avoid saying that obviously bigoted statements are bigoted, but you balk at telling us which of their views you agree with or what it is of value that you think that they add to a discussion about trans rights.

 

[Sea Star]

Sorry I'm not joining in sexualised bullying like this. I suppose trans woman are just supposed to accept this kind of abuse, anything else and they'll probably be accused of demanding sex.

Have I mentioned my cis het boyfriend who considers me a woman, has sex with me and is not even ashamed? And I know quite a few trans women in loving and sexual relationships with cis het men.

I also get hit on cis het men, some who know I'm trans and some who don't.

Have had the odd lesbian/ bisexual woman flirting with me too - however serious that is I don't know because I'm monogomous - but every time someone says that no lesbian or no cis men would fuck a trans woman you're essentially erasing the many who would, and do.

 

[Sea Star]

I haven't met a transgender person I was attracted to yet,

As far as you know. Do you know whether everyone you met was trans or cis?

 

[Sea Star]

He won't because he wouldn't. And I'm posting it because this is so much gaslighting.

Transwomen aren't women; transmen aren't men. If they were, we wouldn't have 7000 posts on this thread. There wouldn't be any discussion. If I get banned for stating a biological fact then I'll send you all foil hats.

And you wonder why trans women have such trouble with discussing this stuff. Because in any discussion about trans, this sort of thing makes up a large proportion of the messages we receive - even on quite formal political discussions online, even in my union's women's group which is supposedly moderated and yet i still got this whilst trying to have a reasonable discussion with those prepared to listen and discuss rationally. Closed minds do not want a discussion, they want to force their world-view on to others, and not have to listen at all.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

As far as you know. Do you know whether everyone you met was trans or cis?

Fair point, I was just saying Trashpony was asking something that wasn't really possible to answer.

 

[Sea Star]

Let's not deflect here. As a heterosexual man, would you have sex with a transwoman? Given they're identical to woman in every single way? That's your argument, isn't is? That we're all the same.

No-one has ever argued that cis women and trans women are identical, but then it's TERFS and transphobes who generally refuse to use the word cis, wheras the attempt to have cis and trans in the vocabulary was there to acknowledge the differences, but at the same time, we're all women.

 

[Sea Star]

Fair point, I was just saying Trashpony was asking something that wasn't really possible to answer.

Generally - have agreed with your posts, but this is a point dear to my heart. My boyfriend keeps having his cis-het status challenged by transphobes because he's with me.

And yeah - pretty much any trans woman will tell you about just how attracted to trans women cis men can be. I've had to turn down sex more times in the last 4 years than in the whole of my life before i transitioned.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Generally - have agreed with your posts, but this is a point dear to my heart. My boyfriend keeps having his cis-het status challenged by transphobes because he's with me.

No I meant it is not possible for the *individual* Trashpony was screeching at to answer in a general way, as it's hard to say. You sleep with people who you fancy, it's not possible to predict who that will be in the future.

 

[Sea Star]

No I meant it is not possible for the *individual* Trashpony was screeching at to answer in a general way, as it's hard to say. You sleep with people who you fancy, it's not possible to predict who that will be in the future.

spot on. I'm sure there are some people for which the 'wrong' genitals would be a deal breaker but on the other hand I suspect those people are in a minority, and I'm sure plenty of people who are with trans people have in the past said they never would be - because when faced with a human being you desire/love/care about then it is possible to change your mind.

 

[Sea Star]

The idea that trans women want to sleep with TERFs though. It's just so bizarre. I wouldn't even let one in my house if I knew.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

The idea that trans women want to sleep with TERFs though. It's just so bizarre. I wouldn't even let one in my house if I knew.

Ha!

 

[Sunset Tree]

Intersectionality as it was conceived is very different to how it is commonly understood and utilised by adherents. It's a bit presumptuous to assume people reject it because they misunderstand it. It's from seeing the type of political action it informs in practice.

 

[Sunset Tree]

I've seen so many tortuous and overly complicated definitions of intersectionality and terrible consequences that the definitions apparently lead to. I really don't get why it's hard to grasp simply as recognising the different sources of oppression and the fact that they interact, in order to make common cause with other oppressed people.

If people used it in this definition there wouldn't be so many complaints about it. The most enthusiastic proponents I've seen are privileged middle-class using it to tally up oppression points.

Directly? Nothing. But Capitalism obviously results in a shed load of the oppression (and privilege) recognised in intersectional analyses. It's not in conflict with class analysis. However, I said 'causes' of oppression in my previous post where I could probably have better said 'grounds for'.

It is in conflict with class analysis in the way it's used - reducing class to an identity on the wheel of oppression, rather than a description of material conditions, resources, social structure, opportunity.

 

[Mation]

Intersectionality as it was conceived is very different to how it is commonly understood and utilised by adherents. It's a bit presumptuous to assume people reject it because they misunderstand it. It's from seeing the type of political action it informs in practice.

Intersectionality as it was conceived is very different to how it is often understood by people who don't subscribe to it. I don't have to assume misunderstandings - they're often very clear from what people say. Granted there are some people who say they subscribe to it but don't in practise.

 

[Sunset Tree]

Intersectionality as it was conceived is very different to how it is often understood by people who don't subscribe to it. I don't have to assume misunderstandings - they're often very clear from what people say. Granted there are some people who say they subscribe to it but don't in practise.

Some people? It's widespread. A lot of people aren't going to read academic intersectional theory (nor should they have to) and will base it on how they see it practiced by their peers, activists, online, etc. Perhaps they misunderstand it because people using it have strayed so far from the original meaning.

 

[Sunset Tree]

I've been thinking about people saying sex is binary while gender is only limited by consciousness. I get that gender is socially constructed surely it is still rooted in material circumstances somewhat. The gender roles/identities we have currently didn't just spring out of our minds, they have foundations in our material lives.

I always learned that gender roles develop out of social structure. Hence in capitalist society, women's role became unpaid domestic labour so the man can go to the factory etc. And to some extent these roles lead to a sense of gender identity. In post-industrial society these roles are not required so they changed.

The idea that you can just think up a gender in your head doesn't make sense to anything I've learned. It's a bit galling to learn this can be considered bigoted as I always considered myself a fully paid-up progressive sociology student type. It always seems to come back to materialism vs. idealism and I believed identities are rooted in material reality and have an embodied dimension.

I hate the 'just educate yourself' line for this reason. I try to think about it in educated terms and it just doesn't add up.

 

[Mation]

Some people? It's widespread. A lot of people aren't going to read academic intersectional theory (nor should they have to) and will base it on how they see it practiced by their peers, activists, online, etc. Perhaps they misunderstand it because people using it have strayed so far from the original meaning.

I think we might be at cross purposes about its misuse, but I think you're wrong about most people straying from the original meaning. For example, several people seemed to read that Munroe Bergdorf tweet as saying you can't talk about female biology on a women's demo, but it wasn't saying that at all. It said if you're going to come you need to be prepared to include all women, not just women who were born with female biology. Problematic for TERFs yes, but absolutely intersectional in its original sense. We need to build find common cause between cis women and trans women (and black women and lesbians and disabled women) instead of rejecting some women as 'other'.

She doesn't say or mean that women born with female biology are unwelcome or should be silenced; the people who are unwelcome are not unwelcome because of their identity, but because of their beliefs that are exclusionary of other people's identities. You don't need to read academic theory to get that - well, maybe some people might - but you can also get that from reading her other tweets or seeing her on TV or reading her non-academic opinion pieces online.

 

[pengaleng]

I've been thinking about people saying sex is binary while gender is only limited by consciousness. I get that gender is socially constructed surely it is still rooted in material circumstances somewhat. The gender roles/identities we have currently didn't just spring out of our minds, they have foundations in our material lives.

I always learned that gender roles develop out of social structure. Hence in capitalist society, women's role became unpaid domestic labour so the man can go to the factory etc. And to some extent these roles lead to a sense of gender identity. In post-industrial society these roles are not required so they changed.

The idea that you can just think up a gender in your head doesn't make sense to anything I've learned. It's a bit galling to learn this can be considered bigoted as I always considered myself a fully paid-up progressive sociology student type. It always seems to come back to materialism vs. idealism and I believed identities are rooted in material reality and have an embodied dimension.

I hate the 'just educate yourself' line for this reason. I try to think about it in educated terms and it just doesn't add up.

you dont just think up a gender in your head one day

gender roles arent synonymous with gender identity

is living a life and having experiences and thoughts and reactions not a material thing?

 

[pengaleng]

The idea that trans women want to sleep with TERFs though. It's just so bizarre. I wouldn't even let one in my house if I knew.

yeah you might catch C.I.S init lol

 

[Sunset Tree]

gender roles arent synonymous with gender identity

There is no relationship between the two? This is what I'm genuinely wondering. There was some discussing earlier in the thread about how identities are formed through the various social roles we are socialised into. I saw you made a post earlier about how gender roles, identities, and presentation are all separate things but I've always felt they are related. Particularly roles and identity.

is living a life and having experiences and thoughts and reactions not a material thing?

No, yeah, that's what I'm saying. How can the number of genders only be limited by human consciousness if gender is related to living a life and having material experiences? Wouldn't gender be limited to the type of lives people generally live?

I'm responding specifically to the idea there are almost infinite genders because they are purely a form of consciousness. Not saying someone who is trans just makes up their gender in their head.

 

[pengaleng]

There is no relationship between the two? This is what I'm genuinely wondering. There was some discussing earlier in the thread about how identities are formed through the various social roles we are socialised into. I saw you made a post earlier about how gender roles, identities, and presentation are all separate things but I've always felt they are related. Particularly roles and identity.

No, yeah, that's what I'm saying. How can the number of genders only be limited by human consciousness if gender is related to living a life and having material experiences? Wouldn't gender be limited to the type of lives people generally live?

well there can be a realationship between the two, internalised misogyny would be a good example, but most people wouldnt say they are trans due to role based reasoning, some might have issues with the expectations of roles, but it's not going to be solely that and being upset with roles isnt gonna make you decide you are gonna counter that by transitioning

it is limited to the lives people live imo, everyones life is varied as their fingerprints so i dunno where yer going with that one

 

[Sunset Tree]

well there can be a realationship between the two, internalised misogyny would be a good example, but most people wouldnt say they are trans due to role based reasoning, some might have issues with the expectations of roles, but it's not going to be solely that and being upset with roles isnt gonna make you decide you are gonna counter that by transitioning

it is limited to the lives people live, everyones life is varied as their fingerprints so i dunno where yer going with that one

People's lives are structured in important ways depending on the location/era they live in. Hence roles today are generally different from 50 years ago due to economic changes etc. I don't think there are infinite ways to live a life that aren't constrained by the social structures of the time.

Not going anyway with it, just trying to think through the relationship between roles and identity.