Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Vintage Paw]

What is the difference between gender and gender roles?

Is this asked in good faith, because it increasingly doesn't feel like it.

A gender role is a role society tends to say should be filled by a specific gender. That role might be caregiver, provider, etc. This is feminism 101 isn't it?

 

[Mation]

I was talking about declaring oneself not a woman but x instead (non binary, of whatever kind).

Does that affect your point?

 

[bimble]

Is this asked in good faith, because it increasingly doesn't feel like it.

A gender role is a role society tends to say should be filled by a specific gender. That role might be caregiver, provider, etc. This is feminism 101 isn't it?

It is a real question I promise. I thought gender role meant something much broader than particular kinds of work usually associated with one / other sex.

 

[Vintage Paw]

And that’s the way forward for feminism is it? Being able to opt out of the class called women and saying I’m x now and your friends believing you.

It's the way forward for a more equal society.

Are you concerned some people will on a whim decide to no longer call themselves women because society says it's icky to be a woman and being a woman is difficult and so instead of fighting patriarchy they'll take the easy way out?

It's really not the easy way out, lol.

 

[MochaSoul]

Intersectionality as it was conceived is very different to how it is commonly understood and utilised by adherents. It's a bit presumptuous to assume people reject it because they misunderstand it. It's from seeing the type of political action it informs in practice.

Aaargh.... Intersectionality has also become the PR word to pay lip service to minorities while, in effect, ignoring them and leaving them to fend for themselves. Intersectionality is about action to address women's different oppressions, so it defends, on domestic violence, for example, that structures and social networks be built around victims of domestic violence that enable them to escape the violence. What ends up getting the louder voice is the lib feminists demand for more police/judicial intervention. All this does is allow for police budgets to increase and police accountability to be evaluated in number of arrests or similarly wholly unhelpful and asinine values. The end result being that black victims of domestic violence in the US often then find themselves between a brutal partner and the brutal police given the police has been too often known to arrest both parties in a domestic dispute or even to arrest the woman (often the caller herself) instead because a lot of black women don't present as the white defenseless victim stereotypes dictate and are perceived as belligerent or hostile or aggressive (or all three). Class analysis (a lot of black feminism employs it) would more or less agree with intersectionality because it recognises the police as an arm of capital. The police doesn't care what black women who are victims of domestic violence identify as. They're black in society's eyes and that's what enables them to get away with this sort of thing.

Intersectionality was never about banning pink pussyhats and shit like that but intersectionality, in the hands of chockablock full of individualism lib feminism, means that a professional dominatrix transgender woman who has actively campaigned for the boycotting and defunding of a rape relief center can and was one of the speakers at the women's march in Vancouver. This would not never stand if that feminism was based on class analysis first of all because prostitution is but a manifestation of oppression. We know it exists and understand why it does and don't go about condemning women for engaging in it because women are objectified in a capitalist system and their bodies are commodities but we'd not refer to it as a "profession" or a "choice" or "work" as The Guardian does nor would we de facto promote it as they do. This is not to say that prostitutes should not be listened to but the idea that the bodily degradation of women can be called work is not just daft, it puts an awful lot of women in danger and it makes these sort of feminisms complicit with capitalism by turning the women involved into capitalists themselves which is why demands that the criminal records of women sex slaves go wholly unheard. Same for porn, stripping, etc.

And Crenshaw hasn't taken kindly to any of it btw.

 

[bimble]

It's the way forward for a more equal society.

Are you concerned some people will on a whim decide to no longer call themselves women because society says it's icky to be a woman and being a woman is difficult and so instead of fighting patriarchy they'll take the easy way out?

It's really not the easy way out, lol.

What isn’t. Identifying as non binary ? What work does it involve?

 

[Vintage Paw]

It is a real question I promise. I thought gender role meant something much broader than particular kinds of work usually associated with one / other sex.

Work, roles expected emotionally, ways of acting, etc. I said caregiver and provider to signify the traditional split in marriage because it's an easy one to understand.

 

[Vintage Paw]

What isn’t. Identifying as non binary ? What work does it involve?

Answer mine first.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Nigel Irritable why did you post that silly tweet by ‘dr rad’?
I think she’s an idiot and she’s by no means any kind of important figure in gender critical feminism is she.
That weird nationalist sounding tweet though was a response to someone right on who was saying ‘why are English women always so ugly like you’. So anyway, why post it it’s totally irrelevant to anything at all.

I didn’t post that arsehole’s tweet. Look again.

You are no doubt right that she’s not a major figure in radical feminism, but she is certainly a major figure in the TERF lobbying campaign against GRA refor.,

 

[bimble]

Work, roles expected emotionally, ways of acting, etc. I said caregiver and provider to signify the traditional split in marriage because it's an easy one to understand.

Yes that’s what I thought, ways of acting, ways of being, associated with femininity / manliness. What is the difference between this stuff (gender roles) and gender as a separate idea?

 

[Mation]

Christ. 235 pages in now and still we haven't determined whether Urban is totally perplexed, despite some medal-winning performances. When will we know?

 

[bimble]

I am still totally perplexed.

 

[8ball]

There is an abundance of perplexment. I think this thread may be generating levels of perplexitude that may leak into other corners of the internet, possibly even diluting the certainty of Twitter users.

Scary times.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Yes that’s what I thought, ways of acting, ways of being, associated with femininity / manliness. What is the difference between this stuff and gender as a separate idea?

Gender on it's own is difficult to pin down because more than anything it's a way of feeling, of knowing what you are.

Feminism has long fought to break down traditional gender roles, to untie the notion of, for example, caregiving or providing from the genders they have long been associated with. The understanding is there, that the things you do should not be and are not dependent on the gender you are. None of that changes by opening up the space for people to say they are a different gender to what they were originally classified as.

There's a tendency to ask trans and non-binary people to be able to explicitly prove something about their gender, about how they feel, about what gender is at its very core, before they can be allowed to be that gender. That's something not expected of cis men and women. And it's a nifty trap because of how almost impossible it is to do.

 

[Vintage Paw]

I see we're adding swerf to the roster today.

 

[8ball]

Gender on it's own is difficult to pin down because more than anything it's a way of feeling, of knowing what you are.

Ways of feeling and thinking about what you are, are in general quite prone to change, though, aren’t they?

Whereas the claims about gender identity (lots of them, anyway), seem to be pointing to something more immutable.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Christ. 235 pages in now and still we haven't determined whether Urban is totally perplexed, despite some medal-winning performances. When will we know?

How would I know whether I am perplexed, not perplexed, or somewhere on the spectrum?

 

[bimble]

Gender on it's own is difficult to pin down because more than anything it's a way of feeling, of knowing what you are.

Feminism has long fought to break down traditional gender roles, to untie the notion of, for example, caregiving or providing from the genders they have long been associated with. The understanding is there, that the things you do should not be and are not dependent on the gender you are. None of that changes by opening up the space for people to say they are a different gender to what they were originally classified as.

There's a tendency to ask trans and non-binary people to be able to explicitly prove something about their gender, about how they feel, about what gender is at its very core, before they can be allowed to be that gender. That's something not expected of cis men and women. And it's a nifty trap because of how almost impossible it is to do.

Agreed. I feel that now though, with everyone having a Gender Identity (be that cis or non binary or woman or whatever) we are all supposed to have this inexplicable un-pin-downable but important core sense of a gendered self that you call “A way of feeling, of knowing what you are”. That’s the meaning of the word gender now, that ineffable inner feeling of belonging to a gender category?

To be honest I think that’s just nonsense, I think (and care about the idea that) we humans don’t have any essential fixed nature, we are incredibly flexible and born free of categories, we do not ‘know what we are’ in any meaningful fixed way IMO. And to choose gender as a fixed point of this idea of the Self just perplexes me more.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

It's the way forward for a more equal society.

Are you concerned some people will on a whim decide to no longer call themselves women because society says it's icky to be a woman and being a woman is difficult and so instead of fighting patriarchy they'll take the easy way out?

It's really not the easy way out, lol.

There’s a similar bizarre logic at work in TERF concern trolling about teenage trans boys. Usually they ignore trans men, historically they tended to treat them as traitors, but recently they’ve been starting to claim that teenage lesbians are being pressured into declaring themselves trans because supposedly that’s more acceptable than homosexual desire now. Which is one of the most deranged claims made by a group of people notable for deranged claims. Quite apart from anything else, only 46% of 18-24 year olds consider themselves entirely straight in the UK. Homophobic bullying still happens, but overall there has never been a more accepting time to be a gay or bisexual teenager.

My suspicion is that this particular line of argument is related to the equally paranoiac gibberish about how lesbians specifically are being coerced by the trans conspiracy into having sex with people with dicks.

 

[8ball]

How would I know whether I am perplexed, not perplexed, or somewhere on the spectrum?

The perplexment has gone recursive!

 

[Mation]

How would I know whether I am perplexed, not perplexed, or somewhere on the spectrum?

Easy. Check your terfometer. It's linked to galvanic skin response. Hear the word and it shoots up? Hmmm. Hovers low? You can probably get along without endless car crashing.

 

[bimble]

My suspicion is that this particular line of argument is related to the equally paranoiac gibberish about how lesbians specifically are being coerced by the trans conspiracy into having sex with people with dicks.

What are you talking about? Why are you talking about people with dicks? Why not say trans women?
(I can’t believe my phone kept trying to auto correct that to people with socks).

 

[Vintage Paw]

Agreed. I feel that now though, with everyone having a Gender Identity (be that cis or non binary or woman or whatever) we are all supposed to have this inexplicable un-pin-downable but important core sense of a gendered self that you call “A way of feeling, of knowing what you are”.
To be honest I think that’s just nonsense, I think (and care about the idea that) we humans don’t have any essential fixed nature, we are incredibly flexible and born free of categories, we do not ‘know what we are’ in any meaningful fixed way IMO. And to choose gender as a fixed point just perplexed me more.

That's not how we experience life though.

 

[MochaSoul]

Thank you for summarising Crenshaw so clearly. I don't think many intersectionalists have read Crenshaw or are applying her framework as it was formulated. I never see it used in this sense, yet regularly see people saying if you disagree with idpol you just don't understand the theory.

I just searched through the identity politics thread to find this article that I found really useful. History of intersectionality from a way of enriching socialism to a tool of individualistic liberalism.

Identity Crisis - Viewpoint Magazine

Nice to see the Combahee River Collective mentioned there. It's 40 yrs this year since they published their statement:
The Combahee River Collective Statement

We believe that sexual politics under patriarchy is as pervasive in Black women's lives as are the politics of class and race. We also often find it difficult to separate race from class from sex oppression because in our lives they are most often experienced simultaneously. We know that there is such a thing as racial-sexual oppression which is neither solely racial nor solely sexual, e.g., the history of rape of Black women by white men as a weapon of political repression.

We realize that the liberation of all oppressed peoples necessitates the destruction of the political-economic systems of capitalism and imperialism as well as patriarchy. We are socialists because we believe that work must be organized for the collective benefit of those who do the work and create the products, and not for the profit of the bosses. Material resources must be equally distributed among those who create these resources. We are not convinced, however, that a socialist revolution that is not also a feminist and anti-racist revolution will guarantee our liberation.

 

[Vintage Paw]

What are you talking about? Why are you talking about people with dicks? Why not say trans women?
(I can’t believe my phone kept trying to auto correct that to people with socks).

Because that's the line of argument spouted by some transphobic lesbians. He was adopting their language to make a point.

 

[pengaleng]

Ways of feeling and thinking about what you are, are in general quite prone to change, though, aren’t they?

Whereas the claims about gender identity (lots of them, anyway), seem to be pointing to something more immutable.

you have to remember that some people cling to immutable concepts because it validates them

and feeling and thinking about what you are isnt really subject to change no matter what facade tyou put on it and I doubt you notice anything unless something is wrong

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That's not how we experience life though.

Or it might be how some people experience life, and that's ok too, no? Isn't a very big part of this that we don't all go around imposing how we feel about a particular thing, in this case gender identity, on everybody else?

 

[Sea Star]

There’s a similar bizarre logic at work in TERF concern trolling about teenage trans boys. Usually they ignore trans men, historically they tended to treat them as traitors, but recently they’ve been starting to claim that teenage lesbians are being pressured into declaring themselves trans because supposedly that’s more acceptable than homosexual desire now. Which is one of the most deranged claims made by a group of people notable for deranged claims. Quite apart from anything else, only 46% of 18-24 year olds consider themselves entirely straight in the UK. Homophobic bullying still happens, but overall there has never been a more accepting time to be a gay or bisexual teenager.

My suspicion is that this particular line of argument is related to the equally paranoiac gibberish about how lesbians specifically are being coerced by the trans conspiracy into having sex with people with dicks.

My friend, Charlie Kiss, a trans man, touches on that in this short blog. Butch women and trans men

 

[smokedout]

Intersectionality was never about banning pink pussyhats and shit like that but intersectionality, in the hands of chockablock full of individualism lib feminism, means that a professional dominatrix transgender woman who has actively campaigned for the boycotting and defunding of a rape relief center can and was one of the speakers at the women's march in Vancouver.

Do you have a link for this?

 

[8ball]

you have to remember that some people cling to immutable concepts because it validates them

and feeling and thinking about what you are isnt really subject to change no matter what facade tyou put on it and I doubt you notice anything unless something is wrong

Well yeah, when you feel something os wrong, it can be a signal that you need to change your ideas (speaking specifically about my experiences with depression).