Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Nigel Irritable]

How was it prioritised?

You do know that changing abortion laws requires a referendum, yes, and that there have been groups working towards getting one for years (and working towards a situation where the referendum will actually be won)?

Again, I don't understand the idea here that this is either/or.

Those women who openly defy the law to import abortion pills aren’t prioritizing abortion rights because they also support trans rights. I’ve fucking heard it all now.

Meanwhile the Brit TERFs who hassle Irish abortion rights campaigns for being trans inclusive, they have their priorities just right.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Lawmakers.

Ok, well I was responding to the pic of abortion rights campaigners and I used the words 'part of the same movement', so really I was talking about the campaigners who force lawmakers to make changes rather than the lawmakers themselves.

In many Catholic countries around the world, the struggle against Catholic opposition to abortion rights is long and hard and ongoing. Other things opposed by the Church, such as gay rights or trans rights, may be won first. But that still doesn't make it either/or.

 

[weepiper]

About ASN - Abortion Support Network

This Is How Protesters Showed Support For Women Who Travel From Ireland To Britain For Abortions

Some British feminists, being completely consumed with hassling Irish feminists for being trans inclusive, yesterday.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Or you could look at it as something that affects a tiny number of people being prioritised over something that affects many, many people.

And not having access to abortion or being denied one when it's required for medical reasons is a very significant risk to mental and physical wellbeing. I imagine much more of a risk than not being able to self ID.

I hate to interrupt this outburst of entertaining ignorance, but it might be best to find out some basics about the legal system and political context you are talking about before pontificating about what is and isn’t being prioritized.

The abortion rights movement is the biggest and strongest ongoing social movement in the country (it was the second biggest during the height of the anti-water charges / anti austerity movement). It’s been the main focus of every feminist organization in the country for years on end. It can put tens of thousands of people on the street on a regular basis. Commitment to it is a litmus test for any politician who wants to be considered at all progressive or left wing. All of those women’s rights campaigns support trans rights, just as they supported same sex marriage, and not one of them sees any contradiction in doing so or any diversion from their main priority. They don’t see trans rights movements as a competitor but as allies they are in solidarity with - and they expect and get mutual solidarity from lgbt movements all of which support abortion rights.

Progress on abortion rights has been slower than on any other social issue (including every other women’s rights issue) for two main reasons: (1) the Constitutional bar inserted by the Catholic right at the last moment of their political dominance in the early 80s and (2) the strategic decision of conservatives to focus almost all of their energies on abortion as their long term retreat became clear. The Catholic right essentially won on every social issue up until the mid 80s and has been continuously losing since. By the time same sex marriage and self ID came in they were, at least in their own publications, quite open about making a strategic withdrawal on just about every remaining social issue in order to hoard their financial political and financial resources for a last stand on abortion. They are even bringing the Pope over this year. This is Armageddon as far as the rump Catholic right is concerned.

 

[smokedout]

Except the demonisation of anyone with an inkling of doubt lends me the right to doubt all claims. As I said the other day when Jeffries name came up, questioning/analysing medical practice within the socio/politico/economic conditions is something that should be actively pursued.

You are perfectly entitled to question that as is anyone. But you can't be surprised that trans people might object to an organisation that promotes indivduals who want to take away trans rights and make trans healthcare illegal, healthcare that in many cases people say has saved their life and which has a large body ofevidence supporting it's effectiveness.

Rebecca Reilly Cooper is another one that's been tarred as a transphobic TERF and yet I have to see any writings or lectures (she has a few on youtube) where she speaks of trans people as people to be exterminated.

Am I allowed to be skeptical? (rhetorical question)

I'm not aware that Tommy Robinson has ever called for all Muslims to be exterminated. Is that the bar now, as long as you aren't calling for trans genocide then anything else goes.

I asked you before, where are you going with this? What would you like to see?

 

[smokedout]

Just one bad apple, eh?

Do Isis represent Muslim thought? They've done a lot more than a solitary anonymous tweet.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

About ASN - Abortion Support Network

This Is How Protesters Showed Support For Women Who Travel From Ireland To Britain For Abortions

Some British feminists, being completely consumed with hassling Irish feminists for being trans inclusive, yesterday.

Lots of British feminists act in solidarity with Irish feminists. Brit TERFs prefer to hassle Irish abortion rights campaigns for being trans inclusive. You are well aware that even in Britain, TERFs are a small minority of feminists. TERFs are a fringe movement of bigoted zealots, they don’t represent all women, British women or British feminists as a whole.

The largest Irish abortion rights campaign habitually responds to British TERFs who hassle them on social media by asking them when they last donated to the Abortion Support Network. They never get a response. When did you last donate to it by the way?

 

[Sue]

I hate to interrupt this outburst of entertaining ignorance, but it might be best to find out some basics about the legal system and political context you are talking about before pontificating about what is and isn’t being prioritized.

The abortion rights movement is the biggest and strongest ongoing social movement in the country (it was the second biggest during the height of the anti-water charges / anti austerity movement). It’s been the main focus of every feminist organization in the country for years on end. It can put tens of thousands of people on the street on a regular basis. Commitment to it is a litmus test for any politician who wants to be considered at all progressive or left wing. All of those women’s rights campaigns support trans rights, just as they supported same sex marriage, and not one of them sees any contradiction in doing so or any diversion from their main priority. They don’t see trans rights movements as a competitor but as allies they are in solidarity with - and they expect and get mutual solidarity from lgbt movements all of which support abortion rights.

Progress on abortion rights has been slower than on any other social issue (including every other women’s rights issue) for two main reasons: (1) the Constitutional bar inserted by the Catholic right at the last moment of their political dominance in the early 80s and (2) the strategic decision of conservatives to focus almost all of their energies on abortion as their long term retreat became clear. The Catholic right essentially won on every social issue up until the mid 80s and has been continuously losing since. By the time same sex marriage and self ID came in they were, at least in their own publications, quite open about making a strategic withdrawal on just about every remaining social issue in order to hoard their financial political and financial resources for a last stand on abortion. They are even bringing the Pope over this year. This is Armageddon as far as the rump Catholic right is concerned.

'Enntertaining ignorance'? I was hoping for 'hysterical fever dreams' or some such. (((Nigel Irritable)))

 

[Miranda Yardley]

A photo from the abortion pill train in 2014, inspired by the 70s contraceptive train. Women illegally importing abortion pills, openly, daring the cops to interfere.

All of the groups involved are trans inclusive and all supported the self ID law.

You always make everything about trannies, ffs. You must be a hoot IRL.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

A thread from the person running the Abortion Rights Campaign twitter account about one of the times Brit TERFs noticed an ARC tweet about being trans inclusive. Result: three days of constant trolling of an abortion rights campaign by people in the next country over who think of themselves as pro women’s rights.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Didn't you hear of the meeting that successfully went ahead despite all attempts to prevent it? What use do you think hyperbole is at the stage where people stop being fearful of accusations of transphobia and go and look for themselves?

Sheila spoke at the end of that meeting, and she was delightful when I met her.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

You always make everything about trannies, ffs. You must be a hoot IRL.

Yeah, how weird to talk about trans issues on a thread about trans issues.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Rebecca Reilly Cooper is another one that's been tarred as a transphobic TERF and yet I have to see any writings or lectures (she has a few on youtube) where she speaks of trans people as people to be exterminated.

I love RRC. I'm honoured that I can call her a friend in real life.

 

[Sea Star]

Or you could look at it as something that affects a tiny number of people being prioritised over something that affects many, many people.

And not having access to abortion or being denied one when it's required for medical reasons is a very significant risk to mental and physical wellbeing. I imagine much more of a risk than not being able to self ID.

Well considering some commit suicide over it, others just end up with debilitating mental illness, I don't think that's true.

But why don't you think trans women support cis women and trans men in their fight for bodily autonomy? Historically trans women have probably been more solidly in favour of right to abortion than cis women.

I don't know what you are afraid of and I don't know why you set abortion rights and trans rights up as being a contradiction. Or even a competition.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

In terms of what the govt allow / forbid.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

No definition of transphobia though. It's a catchall tactic

Ideological totalism is alive and well.

 

[Sue]

Well considering some commit suicide over it, others just end up with debilitating mental illness, I don't think that's true.

But why don't you think trans women support cis women and trans men in their fight for bodily autonomy? Historically trans women have probably been more solidly in favour of right to abortion than cis women.

I don't know what you are afraid of and I don't know why you set abortion rights and trans rights up as being a contradiction. Or even a competition.

And I'd imagine some women commit suicide over bring denied abortion rights or end up physically/mentally impaired as a result. And that's not counting those who die directly as a result of being refused a termination. I imagine accurate figures for this likely don't exist.

I also think this assertion is curious -- interested to know your thoughts on why you think this:

'Historically trans women have probably been more solidly in favour of right to abortion than cis women.'

I'm not setting up abortion and trans rights against each other (and I'm certainly not afraid of either!). The whole topic of Ireland came up because Nigel Irritable kept holding it up as a model of progressiveness.

It was then pointed out that it certainly isn't progressive as far as abortion rights are concerned. Which i reckon is pretty uncontentious, no?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I'm not setting up abortion and trans rights against each other (and I'm certainly not afraid of either!). The whole topic of Ireland came up because Nigel Irritable kept holding it up as a model of progressiveness.?

One of the peculiarities of transphobes in this thread is that they are so used to lying that they keep forgetting that when they lie about other people’s posts in this thread other people can easily see that they are lying.

Ireland is of significance to this discussion not because anyone is claiming it is a uniquely progressive country. It isn’t, although it does have a much bigger feminist movement than Britain because struggles over women’s rights have been so prominent. It is of significance to this discussion because it has self ID laws of the sort that British TERFs are loudly scaremongering about, it has had them for years, and not one of the terrible consequences TERFs have been predicting has come to pass. Instead of attempting to deal with this unfortunate fact, the transphobes here simply ignore it and repeat over and over again that Ireland has repressive abortion laws. They are dishonest down to their marrow.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

So trans rights are prioritised over women’s rights; which was what was being pointed out.

 

[Sue]

One of the peculiarities of transphobes in this thread is that they are so used to lying that they keep forgetting that when they lie about other people’s posts in this thread other people can easily see that they are lying.

Ireland is of significance to this discussion not because anyone is claiming it is a uniquely progressive country. It isn’t, although it does have a much bigger feminist movement than Britain because struggles over women’s rights have been so prominent. It is of significance to this discussion because it has self ID laws of the sort that British TERFs are loudly scaremongering about, it has had them for years, and not one of the terrible consequences TERFs have been predicting has come to pass. Instead of attempting to deal with this unfortunate fact, the transphobes here simply ignore it and repeat over and over again that Ireland has repressive abortion laws. They are dishonest down to their marrow.

Nigel, are you really calling me a transphobe? I'd be very interested to hear your reasons why.

 

[smokedout]

Sheila spoke at the end of that meeting, and she was delightful when I met her.

Is she a Cannibal Corpse fan as well?

 

[Shechemite]

Is she a Cannibal Corpse fan as well?

Are they still going?

 

[smokedout]

Are they still going?

I don't know, Miranda's the expert in rapey extreme metal.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

US far right advocating the same policies on bathrooms and prisons as Brit TERFs. This is what they are lining up with.

Christian Group That Pushed “Bathroom Bills” Is Taking Anti-Transgender Fight to Prisons

 

[smokedout]

Ther's a telling story here about the consequences of the bathroom laws which shows what happens when some of these ideas becomes practiced to the real world. What trans exclusion would be likely to mean is a de facto femininity test to access women's services, or toilets or changing rooms. Of course this won't affect trans women who pass but it might well affect masculine appearing women, or women who have had masectomies such as the person in that piece.

The conservative right will love this of course, and this is really the danger in the allegiance which has been formed in the UK amongst the the right and some radical feminists. Trans critical feminists are the junior partners in this arrangement and if the current campaigning is successful in changing social attitudes towards trans people it will not be feminists who direct how that plays out, but people like David Davies and the Daily Mail. And that will be a disaster for anyone who is critical of gender because whatever they do it will not be radical and it will not be feminist.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Perhaps he was reading some of the shite posted on here this afternoon.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Perhaps he was reading some of the shite posted on here this afternoon.

Poor Jolyon, clearly the victim of trans activist’s misogyny.

 

[smokedout]

Perhaps he was reading some of the shite posted on here this afternoon.

Most likely this bit he objected to:

Any left-over funds will go to fight against self-id, against the medicalisation of children and to keep women's spaces female-only, specifically: women's hospital wards, gyny screening, prisons, domestic violence shelters, changing rooms, saunas, spas, sleeper train carriages, scholarships, quotas and national and international women's sports.

Nice little earner's it's been as well seen as it looks like Labour are backing down. I hope more people didn't miss the fact that this money could end up being used to campaign to prevent trans women accessing support for gender based violence or campaigning against support and treatment for trans children.

 

[weepiper]

Most likely this bit he objected to:



Nice little earner's it's been as well seen as it looks like Labour are backing down. I hope more people didn't miss the fact that this money could end up being used to campaign to prevent trans women accessing support for gender based violence or campaigning against support and treatment for trans children.

It's being refunded, but don't let that stop you getting a good righteous indignation up.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Most likely this bit he objected to:

More likely he read the comments from the shitheads contributing to the fundraiser and it began to sink in who he was associating himself with. They weren’t bothering to soft soap their bigotry or their fanatical hatred as some of the transphobes here half heartedly do.