Nothing ever does.
Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?
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Athos
Well-Known Member
Gay rights aren't specifically women's rights.
On women's rights, the state of Ireland has a very shabby record. I accept that may be in part due to the factors you mention.
But, the fact remains that Ireland's record on women's rights doesn't undermine the idea that it's states with a poor record in this regard that favour self-id for trans people.
Treacle Toes
Time
Has anyone actually argued that Ireland is more progressive generally in terms of women's rights or was Ireland used as an example within a list of others that could be reporting all levels of halaballoo and crimes committed by predatory, self-iding, trans people and but actually isn't? 
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Mation
real life adventure worth more than pieces of gold
Fair enough.
I don’t understand what you’re asking.
Miranda Yardley
Willing Warrior.
Ah gotcha. I don't know where my brain is today.
I think the age of consent in Ireland is 17 across the board, isn't it? I know they have wanted to change this.
Unfortunately, problems over birth control and abortion remain in Ireland, so the law on consent only really benefits men.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Denmark does, though.
It's also a question of direction of travel, imo. States like Ireland, Argentina and Malta have all been moving pretty quickly away from a legal framework that was basically dictated by the Catholic Church wrt things like gay rights, divorce and reproductive rights. They don't start from nowhere - they start from the position history has left them in. Abortion appears to be the issue that is hardest to budge here, meeting with the most fierce resistance. In the case of Ireland, changing abortion rights would require a change in the constitution, and so a public referendum. That's a big hurdle, but there is to be a referendum this year, I believe, so the direction of travel is still good. Other things like changing gender recognition laws are far easier to do, so I'm not sure we should read too much into the fact that they happen first.
Miranda Yardley
Willing Warrior.
Ordered pairs <3
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
I'm not aware of problems with birth control in Ireland these days. I did grow up when homosexuality was not just illegal but you were schooled that it was "a sin" and you were "going to hell" etc. And of course, there were pharmacies were condoms were sold from under the counter, putting them on display was a no-no.
But that's back in the early 90s.
It's a daft suggestion, not least because Norway have also just adopted self-declaration, Scotland is probably next and England along with several European countries are looking into it. Meanwhile countries with advanced trans rights include Canada, the US and most of Europe. If anything there is a clear correlation between women's rights and trans rights and a clear correlation between oppression of women and trans oppression. Just look at the Middle East where only one country, Iran, doesn't match this correlation, and yet this is often used to prove the opposite of what it actually clearly shows.
There's a mildly interesting piece from buzzfeed here which shows if anything public tolerance of trans rights correlates with what percentage of the population actually knows a trans person.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I broadly agree with this. As I said earlier, I put less store by that correlation than I do by the data coming from those countries (which I was probing Miranda Yardley for, but in respect of which they didn't offer any evidence of harm to women). Albeit I recognise that such data has some significant limitations that make meaningful comparisons very difficult. I certainly don't share Nigel Irritable's apparent view that the absence of negative reports from the small sample of Ireland so soon after the law change means that any fears about the longer term consequences in the UK (a much larger and socially distinct country) must necessarily be motivated by bigotry.
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Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
The crucial point here is that in a country that supposedly doesn't favour women's rights, and allows trans ID, if men were to use this as a Trojan horse to womanhood then, we should be able to see it happening. But it hasn't happened. And why just look at Ireland? Seems that Ireland is just convenient for the TERF argument. Look elsewhere where trans people have self id.
Anyway, this thread says it all really.
Really good reasons why self id panic is fabrication and scare mongering.
Please find something real to worry about rather than people like me. I'm no threat. I just want a decent life and equal rights.
if they were gonna do that they'd already be fucking doing it. you think these people are governed by shit like that? ohhh i cant dress up as a woman to rape yet cus trans people dont have self ID yet o noes
people on this thread are fucking basic, watch some criminology programmes.
people on this thread are fucking basic, watch some criminology programmes.
Yes, I tend to agree that this kind of self id panic is fear rather than reality. Although it's not actually me that has to worry, so it's not really my place to say.
The fear that self id can conflict with equality initiatives, though, in the way that is currently threatening to happen in the Labour party, is based on something we are already seeing happening. As are the examples where events that are supposed to be about women's issues are being turned instead into chances for transactivists to make points about inclusivity.
and I pity a lot of you, it's so easy to read terf propaganda and think it's what women really actually believe, I was in denial, I never felt like one, I went along with it, but it was only when I met personally one of the people here I could just instantly see they'd be against me if i dared to speak of my shiz, and it was at that point I realised it was a load of shit, these shits aint what women think it's what a pack of victim complex cunts think.
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
It's a shame that the majority of women aren't being listened to on this issue, just a minority who I believe are driven by hate rather than fear, or else they would engage with us instead of permanently attacking us and filling the media with lies about us.
As a woman I have as much to fear from men pretending to be women as any woman. So do the majority of cis women who support trans women.
I believe we can only move forward if we cut out those lying and creating the scare stories in the Tory press. We need balance. We need people to engage their skepticism. We need people to realise that the majority of trans women aren't lying, don't have an agenda, want to keep female spaces safe as much as cis women do and we're not, never have been, men.
Mation
real life adventure worth more than pieces of gold
What do you think the 'wheel of oppression' says about being black or being trans that you think (but don't yourself agree) is comparable?
They have a spoke each (as does class
) - if they’re not comparable why are they presented as such?
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Tigger Happy Tv.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Well I spent a lot of time spouting my own opinions, listening and asking questions, because I dont believe its a good idea to have blind spots, and I didnt want to be blind to ideas about one groups rights potentially damaging those of another.
I learnt some things that were useful. But some of the language used by a few utterly betrayed some of the less noble agendas at work, and certainly hasnt left me less suspicious of or open to being twisted by TERFs. Since I'm not about to lump a large cross-section of views into some weird generic 'what women think' bracket, the women who are blatantly using some of these issues to legitimise their contempt for transwomen are not going to taint my broader understanding of what a lot of other women think. Even when a broader range of views are rather under-represented on this thread for fairly large chunks of time.
Mation
real life adventure worth more than pieces of gold
Comparable in terms of privilege/oppression or lack thereof doesn't automatically mean comparable in terms of (all of) the causes of that. There is nothing intrinsic to being black that makes you know you're black (or I assume white).They have a spoke each (as does class
Presumably the same for sex then?
Mation
real life adventure worth more than pieces of gold
You can answer that for yourself. Do you feel male? (I'm assuming from your name that you identify as male, though I know that isn't always the case, username-wise).
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i've met mm and i don't know how they identify
elbows
Well-Known Member
And there was me thinking you'd be impressed, honest.
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
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