Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
GrandI've learned so much about being trans from this thread
Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?
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Miranda Yardley
Willing Warrior.
I feel the need to clarify that in Denmark, the upper limit on abortions is 12 weeks, and the patient has to be over 18 to consent, or have parental consent if a minor. In the UK the limit is 24 weeks.
(Consider also that lobbyists in the UK are seeking to allow children who have attained 'Gillick competence', be over sixteen, to be able to change their gender...).
Abortion in Denmark - Wikipedia
Abortion
Mation
real life adventure worth more than pieces of gold
Don't use black people to make your nonsensical point, please. It's not comparable.
I know it isn’t but the wheel of oppression certainly thinks so.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
While we might both criticise Denmark's current 12-week limit for on-demand abortion (I would criticise any legal limit), in practice it is a country that provides safe, free abortions below that limit. I don't think it's fair to characterise Denmark as a particularly bad offender wrt women's rights.
But in any case, I don't see the causal link. I don't see it as either/or. To give a different example, Ireland's position on abortion didn't stop it from equalising the age of consent eight years before the UK did so. Its equal age of consent was more progressive than the UK's position during those eight years.
Miranda Yardley
Willing Warrior.
Consent for what?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
The causal link proposed is that a country that doesn't care about women's rights will feel equally at ease banning abortion as it will allowing men self-declaring as women to undermine attempts to create equality via protected status legislation.
(I'm not saying I endorse this perspective, but the proposed causal link seems logical enough in principle).
Athos
Well-Known Member
You seem to be conflating women's rights with gay rights. Ireland equalising the age of consent for gay and straight people tells us nothing about the state's attitude to women. It's appalling position on abortion tells us lots. The fact that countries with relatively poor records on women's rights are amongst those keen to allow self-ID ought to make us reflect for a moment or two. Personally, I don't think that correlation is a significant as any data regarding the effects of the law change, though. And, in that regard, there doesn't appear to be much evidence of the change having a detrimental effect on women (though I accept that might be an issue with sample size and/or that it is too early to see the full effect).
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
We also need to be careful about talking about 'a country' and what it cares about like that. In the case of Argentina, for instance, the country is extremely divided over the issue of abortion. Plenty in government would actually like to change the law there, but the Church is still a powerful lobby. Certain bad things are easier to change than others, so are likely to be changed first.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I would actually question the conflating of women's rights with trans rights, tbh. Clearly this is a disputed area, but that's precisely why I think it's sensible to look at what is happening in countries where self-id is in place. And to make the sample size as large as possible, you look at all four of the countries that have made the change.
It's the opposite to conflation -- it's the suggestion that there is a conflict between women's rights and trans rights.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Ok. That then. I certainly dispute the idea that countries that have made this change to self-id have done so because they are places that disregard the voices of women. I see no evidence for that whatsoever.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I wasn't conflating trans rights with women's rights. I was making the opposite point i.e. about those states which are keen to promote (this aspect of) trans rights also being those who aren't keen to promote women's rights.
But we agree that it makes sense to look at the evidence of the effects of such changes. Though I would say that's not easy to do in a meaningful way, since we can't control for so many other differing factors. And, because of issues with sample size and it being too early to assess the full impact. Would you agree?
Mation
real life adventure worth more than pieces of gold
No, it doesn't. Correct me if I'm wrong (about you) but you seem to think recognising similar levels of privilege or oppression goes hand in hand with thinking that the drivers of identity are also similar.
krtek a houby
Anger is Hi-NRG
What does it tell you? It tells me it's come a long way since the stereotypical church stranglehold of yesterday and yes, it still has a way to go but (like the US) there are very different demographics there. Still, the ultra conservative religious are in the minority and there's no reconciling them with the new Ireland but even with the money pouring in for pro-life groups (from the US) the country is on the up (regarding women's rights etc).
Fair enough, but you can presumably similarly see that making a change to self-id is also not a tick in the "progressive on women's rights" box either.
Athos
Well-Known Member
It tells me that the state is less progressive when it comes to women's rights than the UK.
krtek a houby
Anger is Hi-NRG
If you define women's rights solely by pro-choice, yes, this is currently true.
It is not necessary for a metric to be one-dimensional to create an ordering on a single dimension.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Not solely, no. But I'm not aware of any other measures by which Ireland is so far ahead of the UK on women's rights as to offset its appalling position on such an important issue, such that it could meaningfully be said to be more progressive regarding women's rights as a whole. Are you?
krtek a houby
Anger is Hi-NRG
Nope, sorry. Perplexed again.
Mation
real life adventure worth more than pieces of gold
In that case you either need to refer to women's rights in x dimension or show that including all other dimensions the UK is more progressive overall, no?
Indeed. And I agree with Athos that I am struggling to see other dimensions within the category of women's rights in which Ireland is clearly more progressive.
I can't say that (3,2) is bigger than (2,3) under a typical ordering system but I can say that (3,2) is bigger than (2,2).
krtek a houby
Anger is Hi-NRG
Gay women are allowed to marry each other, this was universally supported by the referendum the other year. Before the UK did, iirc?
Ireland, you must remember, was under British dominion and then RCC influence for many years. This may have slowed down progress that your country was lucky to have in a quicker fashion...
Mation
real life adventure worth more than pieces of gold
In which case you could just have agreed with krtek a houby.
I don't agree with him. It is not necessary to "define women's rights solely by pro-choice" in order for Athos' statement to be true. Indeed, this was the point of my response, that I disagree.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
I'm not sure that's going to help.
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