Your views are formed by misogyny. Progressive my arse.
Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?
- Thread starter The Flying Pig
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weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
That's funny Nigel, because I don't see you constantly posting about what vicious awful bigots they are, or denouncing their violence towards trans people, or demanding that they be silent, or gleefully listing how they will be removed from public life or denied the chance to gather and discuss what men are.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Are Ireland's abortion laws relevant? Argentina also has appalling abortion laws. Malta even worse. Denmark not so bad. But what is the link here in terms of how we evaluate the effect of gender self-id?
The context is men becoming women being placed above born females.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Is it? What about women becoming men? Where do they fit in? How about Denmark? Where does that fit in?
I’m genuinely surprised how you can’t get the point here.
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
Jesus. Really?
I’m black. But being formerly white I’m more oppressed than actual black people as I have an added oppression. Black people who complain are just being bigots towards white to black trans people.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yes, really. Do Ireland's abortion laws disqualify it from relevance when you're looking at the effects of its gender self-id law? If they diminish its relevance, how? Is there a reason adverse effects could come to light here that would not come to light in Ireland? What about in Denmark?
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
I won't take lessons on progressiveness from any country that will let a woman (or a trans man unfortunate enough to find themselves pregnant) die rather than give her an abortion.
Death of Savita Halappanavar - Wikipedia
Or die on a flight back from having an abortion in the UK
Dublin maternity hospital chief says Irish abortion patient died while flying home after termination
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I'm not asking you to. My point is purely that it is a place that has this law, so it seems pretty sensible to look at what's happened there, and anywhere else with the law, and see what effect it has had. Doesn't mean anybody needs to go shouting about how progressive Ireland is all of a sudden, and if your point is that abortion rights are far more important than gender recognition rights, then I fully agree with you.
Under this self declaration thing, what would stop me declaring myself to be a woman and therefore claiming discrimination if I am barred from entering women only spaces.
Yes, I know I have picked an unlikely and extreme unintended consequence. But what is the philosophical answer to that, where does the progressive political approach assuage people, womens concerns on that score. On the other hand what does self declaration solve?
Yes, I know I have picked an unlikely and extreme unintended consequence. But what is the philosophical answer to that, where does the progressive political approach assuage people, womens concerns on that score. On the other hand what does self declaration solve?
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
My point is that you can have all the gender recognition rights you like but if you don't have legal sex-based protections then women still die. Sorry to be blunt.
because people dont just do this shit it's not typical of an aggressor otherwise they would already fucking do it
seriously if you'd go for a piss at a festival or a squat party without crying or hyperventilating then I dunno what the problem is with sharing spaces with trans people.
unless these places are notorious rapist gatherings and we dont hear about it, who knows
unless these places are notorious rapist gatherings and we dont hear about it, who knows
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
What a bizarre statement.
I’ve pointed out here over and over again that (a) men are more likely to be transphobes than women, that (b) most transphobes, whether men or women, are social conservatives not TERFs and that (c) the discussion here, with the tone largely set by supporters of a small transphobic fringe of the feminist movement is entirely unrepresentative of the wider conflict in society. I’ve even pointed out to other supporters of trans rights that focusing too much on your brand of bigot risks losing sight of the bigger picture in which TERFs have little influence independent of the assistance they provide to the actually powerful transphobes on the right. Strangely enough, the bigots here don’t like that line of argument because it is incompatible with their bizarre self image as spokespeople for the concerns of women.
When someone appears here persistently arguing mainstream transphobic positions rather than your esoteric ones, I’ll be twice as rude to them. It is an unfortunate reality at the moment though that conservative transphobes are, because of their numbers and the milieu they exist in, far less subject to the kind of social pressure from progressives that TERFs are currently finding unpleasant. They don’t suffer from the removal of the approval of their left wing or feminist or lgbt friends and associates because they don’t have many or any to start with. It’s a much slower process to grind down bigotry on the right. Long after TERFs are gone as any kind of political force that here will still be aggressive right wing transphobes and then as now they will be far more dangerous both physically and politically. But their bigotry will be ground down too, just as right wing homophobia while still very real has slowly become less politically significant and less widespread.
' does it 
I suppose you’re right. It’s not like creepy weirdos don’t already try barging into womens spaces. I don’t know, have been reading, , listening. I think I probably agree with Athos .
no one needs to pretend to be a woman to try and get to women because they already dont bother, the toilets thing makes no sense if you look at it from criminology
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
It takes remarkable shamelessness to use Ireland’s abortion laws to excuse transphobia when you are well aware that the entirety of Ireland’s abortion rights movement is trans inclusive. And when British TERFs have only interacted with Ireland’s abortion rights movement not to assist it but to hassle it for being trans inclusive. Which says everything that needs to be said about their “feminist” priorities.
But more importantly it takes willful obtuseness to pretend that you are being asked to regard Ireland as a more progressive society when you are actually being asked why the consequences you are claiming will follow from self ID laws haven’t occurred in Ireland which has had those laws for years. Whether Ireland is paradise on Earth or a backwards religious dump or any point in between, if self ID was going to lead the consequences you claim it should have had those consequences here. Yet it hasn’t. You aren’t interested in examining what’s actually happened because you know it does t fit with your cherished paranoia.
From 'paranoid fever dreams', to 'wilful obtuseness' and 'cherished paranoia'. Looking forward to tomorrow's phrase of the day.
Nigel Irritable, I'm now convinced you're an agent provocateur working for the TERFs. It's the only conceivable explanation.
Nigel Irritable, I'm now convinced you're an agent provocateur working for the TERFs. It's the only conceivable explanation.
krtek a houby
Anger is Hi-NRG
Irish feminism has made significant changes to the country. It's only a matter of time before the draconian laws on abortion are changed.
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
The lack of self-id law didn’t stop Toby Young dressing as a woman in order to pull a lesbian. Our ire should be with toxic men who are cunts—who have always been cunts and will continue to be cunts—and not with trans women who just want to lead their freaking lives.
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
These are countries that currently dismiss womens' rights and concerns.
Miranda Yardley
Willing Warrior.
...and homosexuals did not asked to be called heterosexuals.
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