Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Magnus McGinty]

Suggesting a woman only supports a man's arguments because she's sucking his cock is pretty textbook misogynist, tbf.

Colloquially it can mean the same as arse kissing (a non literal expression for sycophancy).

Even so it’s an inadvisable thing to say to a woman.

 

[bimble]

I just keep coming back to look at this again, a powerpoint slide from a Mermaids teaching session the other day. Notice that all the gender identities have different body shapes, scaling from the busty hourglass barbie far left to the big manly shoulders of GI Joe. How is this progressive, instead of saying to kids look at this harmful nonsense that society is telling you, it just says pick one, choose which of these 2D characters you identify as. And femininity is pale pastels, manliness comes in shades of army.

 

[MochaSoul]

This is not to undermine the concerns many women have. But those concerns and the discussion that needs to take place will not happen whilst some of the loudest voices on both sides engage in abuse. And to claim trans people refuse to even have this conversation because they don't want to share platforms with people like Julie Long and Venice Allan who are openly abusive to trans women is entirely disingenuous. The debate is ongoing on here for example, it has been difficult at times but remained reasonably civil because once those voices are removed from the equation then people feel safer opening up and discussing what can be intimate and very sensitive subjects.

Meanwhile, Maria Miller's Trans Inquiry was completely devoid of women's groups voices because trans groups dictate that only trans voices are allowed to speak on trans issues. That is akin to government wholly delegitimising women's voices. I ask my first question in this, so called civil, thread. Who speaks for my friend who has a fear of men due to a previous history of abuse and feels uncomfortable with being touched intimately by them knowing the NHS won't be able to discriminate between female nurses and transgender women nurses once they've acquired a GRC? Who speaks for the female police/prison officers who might be required to strip search a male body daily on the say so said body's voice claiming to be a woman? Who speaks for young lesbians still learning to navigate sexual encounters who may be emotionally manipulated by men claiming to be women into sexual relationships? Who will speak for the lesbian woman, who gives consent to sexual intercourse only to find an artificial vagina and then be condemned by claims of transphobia if she's put off? Who will speak for me, who also had a temporary fear of men due to domestic violence and might have been made to feel uncomfortable in an already fragile state by finding a man in the Surrey Women's Aid refuge that housed me for 8 months? Who will speak for the woman who gives up going to a domestic violence support meeting having found a transgender woman there and feeling uncomfortable talking about her issues decides to forgo the group altogether without mentioning her reaosns for fear of being dismissed as a transphobe? Who speaks for trans men at the Green Party who have now replaced woman with non-man but have not similarly created a category of "non-woman"?

Another question I asked and went undiscussed was what happens to statistics? What will happen to, say, sexual crimes against women when the men perpetrating them class themselves as women a la Martin, nay, Jade Eatough? How is it fair on women, especially on his raped victim, that his crime is recorded as perpetrated by a woman and his suicide mourned solely on the basis of his transition with the undertones that go with it such as "No doubt she's been a victim of transphobia?" How will women be able to argue about crimes against woman when crimes against them get recorded as "woman on woman"?
Who speaks for women in these matters?

When I lived in Lisbon for a while, I used to babysit a friend's dog a lot and, that requiring walking it, one day this guy sat on the same park bench I was sitting and his conversation and keen questioning of where I lived " Around the corner" and and did I walk the dog here frequently "Sometimes" and at some point I started getting really suspicious and just stopped walking the dog in that particular park when I spotted the guy a few days later at the same seclude spot while cursing myself incessantly for feeling myself obliged to be nice and courteous when I didn't know the man from Adam. A few weeks later there was a rape at that park. It's true that I have no idea if the rape was perpetrated by that same guy (I didn't follow the story), but I keep imagining another young girl being told by some guy with a face splashed with make up that he is a woman and she letting her guard down. What happens to her if she talks to her friends about it and all she hears is a chorus of "You're being transphobic."? Does that not have the effect of silencing her?

Paris Lees loves being cat-called and wolf-whistled. So does Ann Widdecomb. If I critice Ann's opinion she'll take it in her stride and argue it out. Maybe she'll also call me a silly young woman in between arguments but she'll be happy with "We agree to differ." in the end. If I criticise Paris Lees I get called a transphobe and my tweets will go half around the world with TERF headlining them. How is that not the silencing of women's voice?
What is your definition of "to undermine"?

It would be so much simpler if things were as black and white as you suggest in your second paragraph, if all men stuck together and there was something like the protocols of the elders of the sons of Adam. But it's not, it's more complex than that with some women supporting trans people, some women insisting they're men in skirts and doubtless male opinion divided too. I fully appreciate your point about gender as mere identity, but it seems to me gender exists as e.p. thompson says class does at the start of making of the english working class, in people's everyday relationships (sadly on bus with no copy to hand but will find I hope when get to work - here it is, it's just the first couple of pages). I feel gender not simply a hierarchy imposed from outside but a series of negotiations in the course of which it changes.

The comparison of experiences is imo something very much not limited to men on this thread. It's my view that the experience of trans people differs from that of both men and women who are happier or more comfortable in their bodies and sex and so maybe forms a distinct body/corpus of lived experience, a third way if you will.

It's fairly obvious to me you don't give a hoot about my describing of being a woman as a painfully long and drawn out process of coming to terms with being treated differently for possessing a vagina. It's only by dismissing my own experience of "living woman" that you can refer to it as being "happier and more comfortable". The only difference between me and those people who suffer from sex disphoria (but insist on it being called gender disphoria in a move that undermines my claim to full humanhood), is that I don't think my problems would go away with hacking away my boobs and surgically attaching an artificial penis on. The series of negotiations arises precisely from it being a hierarchy.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I just keep coming back to look at this again, a powerpoint slide from a Mermaids teaching session the other day. Notice that all the gender identities have different body shapes, scaling from the busty hourglass barbie far left to the big manly shoulders of GI Joe. How is this progressive, instead of saying to kids look at this harmful nonsense that society is telling you, it just says pick one, choose which of these 2D characters you identify as.

The Cult of Mermaids should not be allowed into schools. Aside from the rampant sexism, the whole concept of 'gender identity' as something separate and distinct from the body is unscientific, and this is pretty much suggesting to children their personalities do not match their bodies. It is instrumentalising child abuse.

 

[editor]

I`m actually 40... the `i was 28 years old` was an old Start Lee joke
Have you ever tried to suck Nigels cock? How long is Nigels cock?

You're now banned from this thread.

 

[MochaSoul]

Colloquially it can mean the same as arse kissing (a non literal expression for sycophancy).

Or submission. Because giving a man a blow job must always mean submission. Same thing happens with "token". They all amount to deliberate efforts to undermine someone's opinion.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's fairly obvious to me you don't give a hoot about my describing of being a woman as a painfully long and drawn out process of coming to terms with being treated differently for possessing a vagina. It's only by dismissing my own experience of "living woman" that you can refer to it as being "happier and more comfortable". The only difference between me and those people who suffer from sex disphoria (but insist on it being called gender disphoria in a move that undermines my claim to full humanhood), is that I don't think my problems would go away with hacking away my boobs and surgically attaching an artificial penis on. The series of negotiations arises precisely from it being a hierarchy.

yeh. it's fairly obvious to me that you've skipped through my post without paying much attention to it and taken from it things which i never intended to be there. for example, i didn't refer to anything being "happier and more comfortable" but "happier or more comfortable" - the or was carefully chosen as i recognise that what i'm trying to get at isn't easy to convey. many people are *unhappy* with aspects of their bodies but comfortable with being e.g. a man or woman as opposed to desiring to alter their gender and/or sex. your post i quoted

Gender as a mere identity serves only to disempower women politically. It's a great ploy actually. Take away the words that define our difficulties. Erode their meanings then proceed to compare our experiences against those of some other another group. A great way to silence women (again). It couldn't be done by other than men in skirts and it's not surprising that they get support from men in trousers.

doesn't seem to me to describe a long drawn out process of being differently for possessing a vagina: i would have responded rather differently if i'd thought such was there. and as for dismissing your experience of "living woman" it's not a phrase i recognise from my post nor from your post quoted. i'm baffled as to how i could have dismissed something which wasn't in either your post or my mind.

e2a: having reread your post and mine i don't believe it's fair to say i've dismissed your view.

 

[crossthebreeze]

I just keep coming back to look at this again, a powerpoint slide from a Mermaids teaching session the other day. Notice that all the gender identities have different body shapes, scaling from the busty hourglass barbie far left to the big manly shoulders of GI Joe. How is this progressive, instead of saying to kids look at this harmful nonsense that society is telling you, it just says pick one, choose which of these 2D characters you identify as.

View attachment 125518

Well not sure if my gender is red person with long baggy t shirt and cap or orange person with a big bum and flared arms, though i did wear a tight dress like the peach person a few times recently, but no pigtails as i don't think that looks good on a nearly-40 year old, and i have been trying to build upper body muscle, so i do kind of aspire to look like the grey person - never blurry yellow gender or the blue loo sign genders though! (well it would be funny if someone wasn't a real educational aid that kids were actually being taught from aaagh)

 

[Pickman's model]

The series of negotiations arises precisely from it being a hierarchy.

yeh. you may feel that, but my view is that gender is both an identity - what one makes of one's gender, how one expresses it, how one does gender - and a hierarchy, how gender is done to you. you don't have to have a hierarchy to have negotiations, people negotiate with those of equal power every day.

 

[MochaSoul]

yeh. it's fairly obvious to me that you've skipped through my post without paying much attention to it and taken from it things which i never intended to be there. for example, i didn't refer to anything being "happier and more comfortable" but "happier or more comfortable" - the or was carefully chosen as i recognise that what i'm trying to get at isn't easy to convey. many people are *unhappy* with aspects of their bodies but comfortable with being e.g. a man or woman as opposed to desiring to alter their gender and/or sex. your post i quoted
doesn't seem to me to describe a long drawn out process of being differently for possessing a vagina: i would have responded rather differently if i'd thought such was there. and as for dismissing your experience of "living woman" it's not a phrase i recognise from my post nor from your post quoted. i'm baffled as to how i could have dismissed something which wasn't in either your post or my mind.

The "and" as opposed to "or" was a typo even if it doesn't take away from the gist of what I said.
But the rest... It's obvious to me that you don't see my posts in the context of the whole conversation. Just because I don't make "living woman" a mantra I feel a need to repeat at any and every opportunity it doesn't mean it's not implicit in my view.

yeh. you may feel that, but my view is that gender is both an identity - what one makes of one's gender, how one expresses it, how one does gender - and a hierarchy, how gender is done to you.

A hierarchy which is embedded in how we're socialised.

 

[Pickman's model]

The "and" as opposed to "or" was a typo even if it doesn't take away from the gist of what I said.
But the rest... It's obvious to me that you don't see my posts in the context of the whole conversation. Just because I don't make "living woman" a mantra I feel a need to repeat at any and every opportunity it doesn't mean it's not implicit in my view.

yeh. having looked back and seen your post 5806, i think i see now what you're getting at and it was not my intention to dismiss or belittle your lived experience but to put forward my views.

A hierarchy which is embedded in how we're socialised.

yeh. but one which is not utterly inflexible and which changes over time: perhaps not always or as quickly as we might hope, and one which can stiffen (as it were) as well as loosen.

 

[pengaleng]

you might not talk about women but you LOVE talking about genitals. it's sad. get help.

dont get me wrong I actually absolutely love that you are having a shit fit, or should that be vag shit, it's really entertaining, however I hope you get well.

as an aside is anyone else sick of ruitias pathetic little personal childish spats on like most threads, like she calls eberyone else a child but then bites so hard on every comment designed to wind her up. ALL THE TIME.

 

[Shechemite]

as an aside is anyone else sick of ruitias pathetic little personal childish spats on like most threads, like she calls eberyone else a child but then bites so hard on every comment designed to wind her up. ALL THE TIME.

I thought you two were mates?

 

[Pickman's model]

I thought you two were mates?

yeh they are, they just hate each other is all

 

[TopCat]

Fucking hell...calling someone a nazi/ nazi youth now? I don't agree with all NIgel says but this is a bit fucking rich given you have tried the anti-semite argument on me recently for calling you a princess even though it had nothing to do with your Jewish heritage. This is the kind of nonsense that made me think of you that way actually. Really fucking spoilt.

You were bang to rights.

 

[8ball]

I just keep coming back to look at this again, a powerpoint slide from a Mermaids teaching session the other day. Notice that all the gender identities have different body shapes, scaling from the busty hourglass barbie far left to the big manly shoulders of GI Joe. How is this progressive, instead of saying to kids look at this harmful nonsense that society is telling you, it just says pick one, choose which of these 2D characters you identify as. And femininity is pale pastels, manliness comes in shades of army.

View attachment 125518

It actually looks like they're fading into ghostly haze as you move further left.
Also made me think that while you could help things a little by bunging Tank Girl into the mix, feminine men seem to be only ever depicted as villains (aside from remote comedy sidekicks).

edit: on a quick search I think I was confused over what 'Mermaids' was about, thought it was maybe something equivalent to what we used to call PST, but seems a little more agenda-laden than that

 

[mojo pixy]

Or gay blokes obvs. No way you can be hetero and yet a bit effeminate. That shit still blows people's minds, for real.

 

[editor]

Can people kindly wind down the personal abuse (in line with the board rules) else the mods will be dispensing warnings. Thank you.

 

[8ball]

Or gay blokes obvs. No way you can be hetero and yet a bit effeminate. That shit still blows people's minds, for real.

With occasional rare exceptions, I guess (Bowie, Jagger, Prince perhaps - I can only think of the world of music tbf), but not so much as role models for younger children.
Which Tank Girl isn't either. I'm all over the fucking place.

 

[RainbowTown]

Or gay blokes obvs. No way you can be hetero and yet a bit effeminate. That shit still blows people's minds, for real.

With occasional rare exceptions, I guess (Bowie, Jagger, Prince perhaps - I can only think of the world of music tbf), but not so much as role models for younger children.
Which Tank Girl isn't either. I'm all over the fucking place.

Not all gay guys are effeminate. I wear checked shirts and walk like John Wayne. I even prefer war movies over chick flicks. And I can't stand Kylie

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Or gay blokes obvs. No way you can be hetero and yet a bit effeminate. That shit still blows people's minds, for real.

Bare people thought my husband was gay at first, he's quite feminine and not macho at all. This must obviously mean GAY cos y'know, gay's aren't masculine.

My mum made a massive thing out of it when she first met him. Before we started going out we lived together in a rented house. We hadn't got together at that point.

So she says "That M.. is he a bit... (she didn't say the word gay, just mimed a limp wrist)" So I said no and asked her why she thought do and she says "because he's so well groomed and dressed, and his room is immaculate".

So he banged me to prove her wrong.

 

[mojo pixy]

Not all gay guys are effeminate. I wear checked shirts and walk like John Wayne. I even prefer war movies over chick flicks. And I can't stand Kylie

IME this also blows people's minds. In The '90s a group of us used to frequent a gay bar in Portsmouth (Martha's) and we'd sit on the floor smoking roll ups instead of swanning about. The looks we got....

 

[RainbowTown]

So he banged me to prove her wrong.

Wow, true love huh?

 

[8ball]

Not all gay guys are effeminate. I wear checked shirts and walk like John Wayne. I even prefer war movies over chick flicks. And I can't stand Kylie

No one is saying all gay guys are effeminate, but effeminate (in some ways) straight guys seem to largely come from the world of music.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Wow, true love huh?

Ha ha. It's our in joke. And now the whooooole of urban knows.

We banged each other cuz we had the hotzzz... 13 years later and here we are.

 

[RainbowTown]

IME this also blows people's minds. In The '90s a group of us used to frequent a gay bar in Portsmouth (Martha's) and we'd sit on the floor smoking roll ups instead of swanning about. The looks we got....

They probably thought you were rough trade.................

 

[mojo pixy]

No one is saying all gay guys are effeminate, but effeminate (in some ways) straight guys seem to largely come from the world of music.

Music Stars have long been able to get away with the kinds of behaviour that would get normal people done over or arrested.

They probably thought you were rough trade.................

I think we were too rough even for that

 

[8ball]

Music Stars have long been able to get away with the kinds of behaviour that would get normal people done over or arrested.

True, but so have superheroes.

 

[bimble]

The Mermaids spectrum thing the more you think about it the more insane it is. If you're a little girl who does not love barbie / prefers 'boy things' and you saw that powerpoint you'd basically be getting the message that you have the wrong body. And they are taxpayer funded and (according to the website) won 'Charity of the Year in the Children and Young Peoples Awards' in November last year.

 

[Pickman's model]

True, but so have superheroes.

see e.g. The Boys (comics) - Wikipedia