Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[8ball]

Crap i've just looked again, and Blaire White's more recent stuff is all about the 'cultural marxists' and being unapologeticaly white.

I'm not sure how to be apologetically white so I'm probably doing a bit of that,

 

[Nigel Irritable]

It’s a great example of what I meant when I said that the tail is wagging the dog, where trans issues are being considered first or as a primary focus in relation to things where they more properly belong as an adjunct. If you want to put on a woman’s ride, your attention should be on the issues women might face on that right and your poster should be about how to encourage women to come along.

You can of course work out your trans policy separately so that it is available to be applied as required and you can answer any questions people might have about it, but this is a niche issue that really doesn’t need to go into the headline information. Anything you put on the poster, you are basically saying is the most important information for people to know, and it sets the whole tone and message of the event. Bringing it front and centre like this is making yet another even that is supposed to be about women’s issues into an event about trans issues.

There’s a generational war going on in British feminism. If an event is organised for women on a feminist political basis and is likely to draw a reasonable turnout, the issue of who is or is not included as a woman can’t really be sidestepped. Increasingly younger feminists tend to make it clear from the start that their events are organised on their terms, which means trans inclusive. That way there are unlikely to be ugly scenes where some anti-trans obsessive turns up and starts shouting at any trans participants and if such a thing does happen everyone knows from the start who is getting thrown out and who isn’t. They know that their rules will offend a number of older anti-trans people and discourage from showing up at all and for the most part they regard that as a bonus.

 

[snadge]

Crap i've just looked again, and Blaire White's more recent stuff is all about the 'cultural marxists' and being unapologeticaly white.

She's a troll and a very good one, get's a fantastic wage for being one etc.

 

[kabbes]

Might not have been as calculated as that - might just have been the case that one of the people involved in the event is trans and wanted it clear on the poster that trans people are welcome. People organising bike rides often don't have media and branding consultants on staff.

Don’t look now, but that’s exactly what I’m talking about.

 

[8ball]

There’s a generational war going on in British feminism. If an event is organised for women on a feminist political basis and is likely to draw a reasonable turnout, the issue of who is or is not included as a woman can’t really be sidestepped. Increasingly younger feminists tend to make it clear from the start that their events are organised on their terms, which means trans inclusive. That way there are unlikely to be ugly scenes where some anti-trans obsessive turns up and starts shouting at any trans participants and if such a thing does happen everyone knows from the start who is getting thrown out and who isn’t. They know that their rules will offend a number of older anti-trans people and discourage from showing up at all and for the most part they regard that as a bonus.

It's like when you have two mates who really can't stand each other. Only option is to meet up with them separately.

 

[kabbes]

There’s a generational war going on in British feminism. If an event is organised for women on a feminist political basis and is likely to draw a reasonable turnout, the issue of who is or is not included as a woman can’t really be sidestepped. Increasingly younger feminists tend to make it clear from the start that their events are organised on their terms, which means trans inclusive. That way there are unlikely to be ugly scenes where some anti-trans obsessive turns up and starts shouting at any trans participants and if such a thing does happen everyone knows from the start who is getting thrown out and who isn’t. They know that their rules will offend a number of older anti-trans people and discourage from showing up at all and for the most part they regard that as a bonus.

This is also exactly what I am talking about. At what point did it just become all about trans, ffs.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I've got two trans women who I've talked about this with, and they have very different experiences of the hoops.

One friend was told she had to do the whole dresses, heels, and make up thing - which really is not her style - before she had any access to surgical treatment to ease the overwhelming sex dysphoria she experienced or was able to get a GRC, and says that she got zero psychological/psychiatric support for anything she might have needed help with, and found the whole process very distressing.

Another friend said she found the doctors really helpful in challenging what were then her rigid ideas about gender (she says at that point she was almost living two separate lives) and letting her explore her identity and different ways of being, and credits the therapy she had at that point with her being able to live a full and happy life - and she worries that if doctors aren't part of the official process then the NHS will stop providing this therapy to trans people (and people who don't define at trans but have similar issues) who need it.

Obviously that's just conversations I've had and its as much "100s of pms of support" as anything, and other people might have different experiences again (I see MY has written about theirs). Personally, I have a massive distrust of psychiatry (its history of sexism and homophobia, the way it pathologises trauma, the horrendous side effects of some drugs, etc), and I can see that the current process is shit for non-binary people especially. But at the same time, I think that self-definition goes too much the other way - I think the key thing is there has to be some sort of social process and any legal definitions or official process also need to have some kind of basis in the social (and also needs to weed out sex offenders and the like).

I share your distrust of psychiatry, for the reasons you give and others, but this is something I agree with Miranda Yardley about: the disputed Swedish study that was quoted earlier in the thread had as its aim the desire to put numbers on the way that ongoing post-transition care brings benefits, and those numbers do appear to be impressive. I agree that this is a legitimate concern.

 

[8ball]

Don’t look now, but that’s exactly what I’m talking about.

Ok, I took you as meaning there was a trans agenda foremost "the tail wagging the dog" whereas it could have been just a feminist event, feminist issues etc. with no heavy trans thing going on, but due to having a trans person in the group they didn't want it turning into a terfy shouting match.

 

[bimble]

Nigel Irritable If this is generational, as you say, then what is the thing that has changed - what is the defining feature of this new generation of trans-inclusive feminists as you see it that sets them at odds with the feminists who came before and who are now obsolete?

 

[8ball]

This is also exactly what I am talking about. At what point did it just become all about trans, ffs.

My initial instinct is that it's just timing. The struggle for women's equality is in the middle of it's curve just as you have some increased tolerance for trans people meaning more are becoming visible and vocal.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

One friend was told she had to do the whole dresses, heels, and make up thing - which really is not her style - before she had any access to surgical treatment to ease the overwhelming sex dysphoria she experienced or was able to get a GRC, and says that she got zero psychological/psychiatric support for anything she might have needed help with, and found the whole process very distressing.

I think anyone who is advising people to do that should be fired. I am totally with your friend as well on the appalling lack of theraputic support before and after surgery.

Another friend said she found the doctors really helpful in challenging what were then her rigid ideas about gender (she says at that point she was almost living two separate lives) and letting her explore her identity and different ways of being, and credits the therapy she had at that point with her being able to live a full and happy life - and she worries that if doctors aren't part of the official process then the NHS will stop providing this therapy to trans people (and people who don't define at trans but have similar issues) who need it.

Is the difference mainly one friend had therapy and one didn't? I had therapy for years, pre- and post-, it was a huge benefit. I think talking the process out of mental health is likely to make it a Cinderella condition and governments will lose enthusiasm for funding treatment.

Obviously that's just conversations I've had and its as much "100s of pms of support" as anything, and other people might have different experiences again (I see MY has written about theirs). Personally, I have a massive distrust of psychiatry (its history of sexism and homophobia, the way it pathologises trauma, the horrendous side effects of some drugs, etc), and I can see that the current process is shit for non-binary people especially. But at the same time, I think that self-definition goes too much the other way - I think the key thing is there has to be some sort of social process and any legal definitions or official process also need to have some kind of basis in the social (and also needs to weed out sex offenders and the like).

Another point about self-definition is people are able to flat out not believe us. And I don't think sex offenders should be allowed to change their legal gender.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

There’s a generational war going on in British feminism. If an event is organised for women on a feminist political basis and is likely to draw a reasonable turnout, the issue of who is or is not included as a woman can’t really be sidestepped. Increasingly younger feminists tend to make it clear from the start that their events are organised on their terms, which means trans inclusive. That way there are unlikely to be ugly scenes where some anti-trans obsessive turns up and starts shouting at any trans participants and if such a thing does happen everyone knows from the start who is getting thrown out and who isn’t. They know that their rules will offend a number of older anti-trans people and discourage from showing up at all and for the most part they regard that as a bonus.

In fairness this attitude reflects more the lack of life experience of living as a woman in a world of men (especially apropos childbirth, sexual harassment and assault, and the 'double shift' of working and raising a family, and that young women are being brainwashed into accepting males as being females. The letter extends to dating, and is attacking lesbian culture.

I'd also add that the attitude is more 'pro-woman' than 'anti-trans' and this is being spun into a dichotomy of 'pro-woman is anti-trans' by trans activists in order to gain ground. This dichotomy doesn't have to be there.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Nigel Irritable If this is generational, as you say, then what is the thing that has changed - what is the defining feature of this new generation of trans-inclusive feminists as you see it that sets them at odds with the feminists who came before and who are now obsolete?

I'd say that it's growing up in a neo-liberal world. They have no class consciousness and this rubs the wrong way with a generation of radicals who remember how to do class. The only reference point the younger generation have is how to do "me".

Also a lifetime of sexism vs less than a decade. As you hit yer thirties shit really starts to grate on you.

It was coming to these forums that saved me early on from the same path. Some of my very early posts on here are a bit

 

[Nigel Irritable]

This is also exactly what I am talking about. At what point did it just become all about trans, ffs.

It isn’t “all about trans”, but making an event’s stance on trans issues clear from the start is a good way to head off the possibility that the event becomes yet another flashpoint squabble endlessly discussed on social media and turned into a shock of the day by the TERFs allies in the right wing press. As trans inclusivity slowly becomes a settled issue in the British feminist movement (as it already is in the rest of the anglophone West), the need to tell “gender critical” types from the start that anti-trans outbursts aren’t welcome will start to fade.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

the disputed Swedish study that was quoted earlier in the thread had as its aim the desire to put numbers on the way that ongoing post-transition care brings benefits, and those numbers do appear to be impressive. I agree that this is a legitimate concern.

In discussions about this study, this incredibly important point is almost always completely overlooked. In fact, I have not ever seen anyone else bring it up.

 

[bimble]

This is also exactly what I am talking about. At what point did it just become all about trans, ffs.

I think this is where it connects to the wider picture of everything becoming more individualist and consumerist and all about the Self as the center of everything, not shared experience / structural analysis of what's wrong just a question of what do I want, who am I and how do I get to feel good.
eta:what FabricLiveBaby! said.

 

[weepiper]

Nigel Irritable If this is generational, as you say, then what is the thing that has changed - what is the defining feature of this new generation of trans-inclusive feminists as you see it that sets them at odds with the feminists who came before and who are now obsolete?

None of them have had kids yet.

 

[Athos]

Nigel Irritable If this is generational, as you say, then what is the thing that has changed - what is the defining feature of this new generation of trans-inclusive feminists as you see it that sets them at odds with the feminists who came before and who are now obsolete?

They've grown up knowing nothing but liberalism, and think identity politics is radicalism.

 

[bimble]

None of them have had kids yet.

I haven't had kids, and i'm still the wrong kind of feminist. Wednesday night though I had the classic 'Hi babe how you doin' when I was walking home really late in the dark, and for sure years and years of accumulated irritation at having to deal with and appease that stuff definitely informs my attitude to this whole issue.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

They've grown up knowing nothing but liberalism, and think identity politics is radicalism.

Really it's neoliberalism: totally centred on the individual, materialist (as in they want $tuff).

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I’m very impressed by those “pro woman” arguments that younger feminists are “brainwashed”, “neoliberal” and “all about me” because they don’t agree with your anti-trans politics.

 

[bimble]

That's why I was asking Nigel Irritable who thinks 'trans women are women' is the apogee of radical left thinking and everyone standing in the way is 'a minor adjunct to the regressive right' or something. What do you think Nigel, what has changed leaving 'terfs' behind?

 

[snadge]

Crap i've just looked again, and Blaire White's more recent stuff is all about the 'cultural marxists' and being unapologeticaly white.

This is the video that got me interested in Blaire, ripping shreds out of broken brained Onision.

 

[trashpony]

There’s a generational war going on in British feminism. If an event is organised for women on a feminist political basis and is likely to draw a reasonable turnout, the issue of who is or is not included as a woman can’t really be sidestepped. Increasingly younger feminists tend to make it clear from the start that their events are organised on their terms, which means trans inclusive. That way there are unlikely to be ugly scenes where some anti-trans obsessive turns up and starts shouting at any trans participants and if such a thing does happen everyone knows from the start who is getting thrown out and who isn’t. They know that their rules will offend a number of older anti-trans people and discourage from showing up at all and for the most part they regard that as a bonus.

How fucking DARE you tell women what to do and how to behave. I don't even care what we're arguing about. But how FUCKING DARE YOU.

Just fuck off. I am sick to the back teeth of the MEN on here telling women what they should do and how they should feel, how they should behave and what happens in meetings, given they're not even in the fucking room.

Christ.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

That's why I was asking Nigel Irritable who thinks 'trans women are women' is the apogee of radical left thinking and everyone standing in the way is 'a minor adjunct to the regressive right' or something. What do you think Nigel, what has changed leaving 'terfs' behind?

I'm still baffled how anyone who understands left wing politics at all could believe that an inner sense of personal identity is more important than a physical reality, the position is that far removed from leftist thought.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

This is the video that got me interested in Blaire, ripping shreds out of broken brained Onision.

Now there really is one hell of a creepy fucker.

 

[kabbes]

Ok, I took you as meaning there was a trans agenda foremost "the tail wagging the dog" whereas it could have been just a feminist event, feminist issues etc. with no heavy trans thing going on, but due to having a trans person in the group they didn't want it turning into a terfy shouting match.

No, I mean what I say — I mean that the people running an event about women’s issues just took it for granted — for whatever reason — that one of the few very most important things to talk about in relation to that event was not its purpose or message or its approach to childcare or safety or any number of 100 things relevant to women as a whole but rather the identity profile of the trans people that will be included.

The fact that it might not be a calculated move but just assumed as key on the part of the organisers just exacerbates the point that it is the tiny trans tail wagging the massive feminist dog.

 

[weepiper]

How fucking DARE you tell women what to do and how to behave. I don't even care what we're arguing about. But how FUCKING DARE YOU.

Just fuck off. I am sick to the back teeth of the MEN on here telling women what they should do and how they should feel, how they should behave and what happens in meetings, given they're not even in the fucking room.

Christ.

*applause*

 

[snadge]

Now there really is one hell of a creepy fucker.

He's far creepier in his real life than his internet acting, he's someone that is going to get locked up.

 

[bimble]

I'm still baffled how anyone who understands left wing politics at all could believe that an inner sense of personal identity is more important than a physical reality, the position is that far removed from leftist thought.

Me too I don't understand this. How did accepting a reified idea of a gendered soul-type-thing become central to 'left' thinking Nigel Irritable ?