Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[snadge]

Yes that’s entirely true. The overwhelming majority of transphobic women are social conservatives, just as a large majority of transphobic men are. Those whose transphobia is rooted in some variant of a Radical Feminist analysis of gender are a noisy but small fringe. There’s also a further subset almost unique to Britain of transphobes who deploy a radfem gender analysis on trans issues and sometimes certain other gender related issues but otherwise are not political radicals of any sort (ie the New Statesman types).

This is oxymorinic, I don't even...

 

[campanula]

Ah, I had hoped to be done with this thread, being both naive and hopelessly adrift regarding the often circular arguments but here is my non-ideological, real world example (I had so hoped to have no dog in this race). My daughter has organised a 'sister circle' (!) for this Easter in our woods...but the whole thing is unravelling because a person currently identifying as female is insisting on going. As we know this person to be a narcissist and massive pita, she has not been invited. More importantly, before her recent transformation, she has had dodgy sexual relationships with a couple of the women (afaik, she has never had any sexual relationships with men)...plus she is a demanding and abusive drunk. All the women who know her are on board with using whatever personal pronoun and first name she prefers...but less keen on sharing a firepit in the woods....while other women who do not know her, have rapidly come down on what they percieve to be an anti-trans agenda...and yep, it is turning into a terf war... gleefully exacerbated by person in question now she has been left off the invite list.

While woman are feeling annoyed and enraged, being told what to do, think and accept...after a decades long battle to overturn the oppressive tenets of patriarchal hegemony, I can't really think that this current handwringing and name-calling, offers any benefit at all, in terms of rights, equality, accessibility, for those transpeople (including the seemingly invisible trans men) who have struggled to define and challenge a restrictive, exclusive system of labelling, yet desperately need community, solidarity and acceptance.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Yes that’s entirely true. The overwhelming majority of transphobic women are social conservatives, just as a large majority of transphobic men are. Those whose transphobia is rooted in some variant of a Radical Feminist analysis of gender are a noisy but small fringe. There’s also a further subset almost unique to Britain of transphobes who deploy a radfem gender analysis on trans issues and sometimes certain other gender related issues but otherwise are not political radicals of any sort (ie the New Statesman types).

There's not much more socially conservative than defining 'woman' based upon a personal identity with sex-based stereotypes.

This is what is known as 'sexism'. Bro'.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Excellent. Cis women shouldn't go because people who "self-identify" as women are more important.

Is that what the poster says?

 

[snadge]

Nobody with the slightest sense of proportion thinks that some feminists organizing a bike ride and saying in their promotional material that their bike ride is trans inclusive is something to worry about. You’d have to be an anti-trans obsessive to get worried about it.

Here's some cuntsplaining for you, it doesn't say it is trans inclusive at all, it is actually inviting anybody that says they are female on the day if they fancy it.

Dumb cunt.

 

[SpookyFrank]

There's not much more socially conservative than defining 'woman' based upon a personal identity with sex-based stereotypes.
.

You mean like the current gender recognition process for trans people does?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

And that is the fucked up kernel at the heart of this, in my opinion.
Have you got any idea of a way forward please?
Trans people aren't going away, and I can totally see the positive potential in messing with gender, skewing it, wearing the 'wrong' clothes etc (I've just bought a pinstripe mens suit but am not in any way trans) so what is the way to make this a good moment for women and everyone not a shit get back in your box one?

I have a few ideas in here:

Finding Middle Ground Between Women’s Rights and Transgender Rights

 

[8ball]

Has anyone noticed how few women are on this thread? Why would that be?

Demographics has already been suggested.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

You mean like the current gender recognition process for trans people does?

No, this is how 'woman' is being defined. See earlier in this thread, and as a for example:

Woman: a human being who self-identifies as a woman, based on elements of importance to the individual, such as gender roles, behaviour, expression, identity, and/or physiology.

World Professional Association for Transgender Health -
The Standards of Care 7TH VERSION
http://www.phsa.ca/transgender/Documents/Glossary of Terms - 3 sources.pdf

 

[Athos]

Nobody with the slightest sense of proportion thinks that some feminists organizing a bike ride and saying in their promotional material that their bike ride is trans inclusive is something to worry about. You’d have to be an anti-trans obsessive to get worried about it.

You tell those uppity bitches, Nige.

 

[8ball]

You tell those uppity bitches, Nige.

 

[bimble]

Finding Middle Ground Between Women’s Rights and Transgender Rights

This is good. Not sure how JS Mill would be feeling about your use of him but yes.

"If you are categorising disagreement as hate (‘transphobia’): when your central claim is untouchable, unassailable, how can we possibly have any honest or productive discussion or debate? [..] disagreement is not hate, on the contrary, it is how our ideas and communities evolve."

 

[MochaSoul]

Sarcasm alert

 

[8ball]

Sarcasm alert

Indeed. But sometimes these things can go two ways.

 

[MochaSoul]

Indeed. But sometimes these things can go two ways.

They can but how much poorer will we be if we're too ready to pounce at minutest sign of dodginess.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

This is good. Not sure how the man JSMill would be feeling about your use of him but yes.
"If you are categorising disagreement as hate (‘transphobia’): when your central claim is untouchable, unassailable, how can we possibly have any honest or productive discussion or debate?"

I think Mill would be really cool on much of the positions I associate with him. He recognised the importance of class, for example, and championed the work of Harriet Taylor and her sister Helen. I have had some correspondence with Helen Pringle, author of this piece, who is an authority on Mill and her work seems to corroborate much of what I derive from Mill's work. I think also he'd have ripped apart the whole concept of identifying with social roles which in Mill's time were the structural leverage that really kept women on the bottom. Harriet Taylor's own work is worth reading too, 'The Enfranchisement of Women' was essentially rewritten by JS Mill and Helen Taylor to produce 'The Subjection of Women'.

A Civilised Approach to Prostitution: Re-reading John Stuart Mill – Opinion – ABC Religion & Ethics (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

And thank you for the words of encouragement.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

You tell those uppity bitches, Nige.

Perhaps you could elaborate on your condescending view that younger feminists in Britain and the large majority of feminists internationally “know nothing but liberalism”.

 

[trashpony]

Demographics has already been suggested.

It's because women are constantly shouted over and ignored. As Nigel has amply demonstrated. He's not only helpfully outlined the demographics of how women of different ages feel, he's told us how we behave! He's neglected to describe how white/black women behave or wc/mc women do - or indeed how we interact with one another. And how all those groups of women negotiate their complex relationships. But none of that matters. nigel has been present (virtually) at every single one of our meetings and can now tell us how to behave.

Over to you, nigel!

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Perhaps you could elaborate on your condescending view that younger feminists in Britain and the large majority of feminists internationally “know nothing but liberalism”.

Here's how 'modern' or 'liberal feminism' is a neoliberal Trojan Horse used to convince women hat prostitution is sexy and that men can be better women than they could ever.

How ‘modern’ or ‘third-wave’ feminism benefits men

 

[Red Cat]

Demographics has already been suggested.

More likely that it's because there's always a man that knows better.

 

[bimble]

Over to you, nigel!

 

[weepiper]

It's because women are constantly shouted over and ignored. As Nigel has amply demonstrated. He's not only helpfully outlined the demographics of how women of different ages feel, he's told us how we behave! He's neglected to describe how white/black women behave or wc/mc women do - or indeed how we interact with one another. And how all those groups of women negotiate their complex relationships. But none of that matters. nigel has been present (virtually) at every single one of our meetings and can now tell us how to behave.

Over to you, nigel!

And this is the problem with the poster. In their desperation to include everybody they're opening the door to tedious self important dudebros who are identifying as non-binary this week who will dominate the conversation and the women will have to tolerate it out of politeness and niceness and no-one will tell them to sit doon. Like always happens when we let men join our conversations. Which makes it not worth bothering with.

 

[8ball]

He hasn’t told anyone what to think or how to behave, though (iirc), he’s just referencing the reasons for his opinions.

I’m not familiar enough with the subject matter to dispute it myself, but it could be disputed.

A few pages back there was some quite extreme (imo) relativism about what male and female mean that went largely unchallenged so it seems odd now that he’d jumped on quite so hard for these particular statements.

The thread seems to swing about quite a bit depending on who is in..

 

[bimble]

Here's how 'modern' or 'liberal feminism' is a neoliberal Trojan Horse used to convince women hat prostitution is sexy and that men can be better women than they could ever.

How ‘modern’ or ‘third-wave’ feminism benefits men

"Second-wave feminism is foundational upon a Marxist analysis of class, and is fundamentally anti-capitalist. It recognises that focussing on an individual’s choices can ignore the structural problems that lead to inequalities. The ‘choice’ in ‘choice feminism’ as a synonym for third wave feminism originates with its neoliberal canonisation of the sanctity of personal choice, ‘choice feminism’ is inherently neoliberal. "

Nigel Irritable ?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

A few pages back there was some quite extreme (imo) relativism about what male and female mean

What was that...?

 

[bimble]

What was that...?

Oh you know, nobody is really a woman, or there's no such thing, nothing is actually the case its all a matter of perception etc. Athos was surprisingly out there with the relativism.

 

[MochaSoul]

He hasn’t told anyone what to think or how to behave, though (iirc), he’s just referencing the reasons for his opinions.

Yes, and those reasons have never nowt to do with women and are all to do with trans people's rights, bogeymen of political projects elsewhere, etc. It's exhausting.

 

[planetgeli]

Yes, and those reasons have never nowt to do with women and are all to do with trans people's rights, bogeymen of political projects elsewhere, etc. It's exhausting.

Personally I find this whole thread exhausting. Interesting (mostly) but exhausting. Be nice to get back to the class war. One day.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

And this is the problem with the poster. In their desperation to include everybody they're opening the door to tedious self important dudebros who are identifying as non-binary this week who will dominate the conversation and the women will have to tolerate it out of politeness and niceness and no-one will tell them to sit doon. Like always happens when we let men join our conversations. Which makes it not worth bothering with.

How annoying that these younger feminists would rather risk even the possibility of being bored by your imaginary “tedious self important dudebros who are identifying as non-binary this week“ rather than put up with people of your politics.

 

[weepiper]

How annoying that these younger feminists would rather risk even the possibility of being bored by your imaginary “tedious self important dudebros who are identifying as non-binary this week“ rather than put up with people of your politics.

Well, I'm a female mechanic with 24 years' experience of riding bikes in Edinburgh, so I would probably be quite useful in helping out at an Edinburgh women's bike workshop, but whatever, Nige.