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Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

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Nigel Irritable said:
that younger feminists are “brainwashed”, “neoliberal” and “all about me” because they don’t agree with your anti-trans politics.
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Add to that "monumentally lacking in ambition". There used to be a time when gender was defined as a set of power structures used to subdue women and feminism was meant to destroy those forces. Now gender seems to have been relegated to mere identity. Some of us refuse to identify with that which is used to shackle us. Some of us still hold to higher dreams.
 
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bimble said:
Nigel Irritable If this is generational, as you say, then what is the thing that has changed - what is the defining feature of this new generation of trans-inclusive feminists as you see it that sets them at odds with the feminists who came before and who are now obsolete?
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The phenomenon that requires special explanation is not that younger British feminists are broadly in step with the feminist movement internationally but that an unusually strong cohort of older feminists in Britain are so wildly out of step with it. I’ve tried to give an explanation for that oddity repeatedly in this thread: a combination of the survival of various 80s subcultural scenes linked to an unusually strong radfem movement then with the work done by the Blairites at the New Statesman to make anti-trans sentiments respectable to non social conservatives.

The idea that the conflict is actually caused by some failing of youth is no doubt very attractive to older TERFs who can sense themselves being marginalized, but that self serving explanation can’t account for the relative weakness of generational conflict over this issue elsewhere.
 
Nigel Irritable said:
The phenomenon that requires special explanation is not that younger British feminists are broadly in step with the feminist movement internationally but that an unusually strong cohort of older feminists in Britain are so wildly out of step with it. I’ve tried to give an explanation for that oddity repeatedly in this thread: a combination of the survival of various 80s subcultural scenes linked to an unusually strong radfem movement then with the work done by the Blairites at the New Statesman to make anti-trans sentiments respectable to non social conservatives.

The idea that the conflict is actually caused by some failing of youth is no doubt very attractive to older TERFs who can sense themselves being marginalized, but that self serving explanation can’t account for the relative weakness of generational conflict over this issue elsewhere.
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2/10. You are totally avoiding the question and hiding in your politico pidgeonholes. I think you don't even understand the question.
 
kabbes said:
No, I mean what I say — I mean that the people running an event about women’s issues just took it for granted — for whatever reason — that one of the few very most important things to talk about in relation to that event was not its purpose or message or its approach to childcare or safety or any number of 100 things relevant to women as a whole but rather the identity profile of the trans people that will be included.

The fact that it might not be a calculated move but just assumed as key on the part of the organisers just exacerbates the point that it is the tiny trans tail wagging the massive feminist dog.
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Like I said, maybe they had a trans person among them and didn’t want a screaming match. Their choices being to either cancel the event, ostracise a friend in advance, or ostracise a friend via said screaming match.

Refer back to what I said about what you do when you have two mates who can’t get on.
 
trashpony said:
How fucking DARE you tell women what to do and how to behave. I don't even care what we're arguing about. But how FUCKING DARE YOU.

Just fuck off. I am sick to the back teeth of the MEN on here telling women what they should do and how they should feel, how they should behave and what happens in meetings, given they're not even in the fucking room.

Christ.
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If you are going to indulge in this kind of entertainingly stupid posturing, you will probably find it more effective to deploy your strategic outrage in response to a post that actually does tell anyone what they should do or feel or how to behave.
 
Nigel Irritable said:
The phenomenon that requires special explanation is not that younger British feminists are broadly in step with the feminist movement internationally but that an unusually strong cohort of older feminists in Britain are so wildly out of step with it. I’ve tried to give an explanation for that oddity repeatedly in this thread: a combination of the survival of various 80s subcultural scenes linked to an unusually strong radfem movement then with the work done by the Blairites at the New Statesman to make anti-trans sentiments respectable to non social conservatives.

The idea that the conflict is actually caused by some failing of youth is no doubt very attractive to older TERFs who can sense themselves being marginalized, but that self serving explanation can’t account for the relative weakness of generational conflict over this issue elsewhere.
Click to expand...

Most of the women who object to transgender identity politics and the colonisation of women's lives and spaces are not radical feminists.
 
Nigel Irritable said:
The phenomenon that requires special explanation is not that younger British feminists are broadly in step with the feminist movement internationally but that an unusually strong cohort of older feminists in Britain are so wildly out of step with it. I’ve tried to give an explanation for that oddity repeatedly in this thread: a combination of the survival of various 80s subcultural scenes linked to an unusually strong radfem movement then with the work done by the Blairites at the New Statesman to make anti-trans sentiments respectable to non social conservatives.

The idea that the conflict is actually caused by some failing of youth is no doubt very attractive to older TERFs who can sense themselves being marginalized, but that self serving explanation can’t account for the relative weakness of generational conflict over this issue elsewhere.
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Wow that really is mansplaining writ large. And yet, here you are, banging on and on. Bros before hos
 
Nigel Irritable said:
If you are going to indulge in this kind of entertainingly stupid posturing, you will probably find it more effective to deploy your strategic outrage in response to a post that actually does tell anyone what they should do or feel or how to behave.
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Oh shut up you patronising wanker. I'm on the inclusionary side of this debate, and the overwhelming majority of your posts make me face palm.
 
Nigel Irritable said:
If you are going to indulge in this kind of entertainingly stupid posturing, you will probably find it more effective to deploy your strategic outrage in response to a post that actually does tell anyone what they should do or feel or how to behave.
Click to expand...


Lol, you're a bigger cunt than I am.
 
MochaSoul said:
Add to that "immensely lacking in ambition". There used to be a time when gender was defined as a set of power structures used to subdue women and feminism was meant to destroy those forces. Now gender seems to have been relegated to mere identity. Some of us refuse to identify with that which is used to shackle us. Some of us still hold to higher dreams.
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Nail, meet head. How on earth is it progressive to turn the former definition of gender here into the purely personal and a bit esoteric currently fashionable one?
 
8ball said:
Like I said, maybe they had a trans person among them and didn’t want a screaming match. Their choices being to either cancel the event, ostracise a friend in advance, or ostracise a friend via said screaming match.

Refer back to what I said about what you do when you have two mates who can’t get on.
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You think it’s all ok then? Justified? Nothing to worry about?

You don’t think it’s the tail wagging the dog, what, because you’ve made up a story as to what might have happened to get the poster to this point? Even if your story is true, that somehow makes it non-tail?

Bizarre.
 
Miranda Yardley said:
Most of the women who object to transgender identity politics and the colonisation of women's lives and spaces are not radical feminists.
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Yes that’s entirely true. The overwhelming majority of transphobic women are social conservatives, just as a large majority of transphobic men are. Those whose transphobia is rooted in some variant of a Radical Feminist analysis of gender are a noisy but small fringe. There’s also a further subset almost unique to Britain of transphobes who deploy a radfem gender analysis on trans issues and sometimes certain other gender related issues but otherwise are not political radicals of any sort (ie the New Statesman types).
 
spanglechick said:
Oh shut up you patronising wanker. I'm on the inclusionary side of this debate, and the overwhelming majority of your posts make me face palm.
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And yet Nigel is at the forefront of leftist activism, relishing the joy in telling women what to think.

The enthusiasm of a lot of lefty dudes for trans rights has fuck all to do with trans and an awful lot to do with misogyny. As this thread demonstrates.
 
kabbes said:
You think it’s all ok then? Justified? Nothing to worry about?

You don’t think it’s the tail wagging the dog, what, because you’ve made up a story as to what might have happened to get the poster to this point? Even if your story is true, that somehow makes it non-tail?

Bizarre.
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I was just saying you don't know the full story behind that poster, like I don't.
But hey, whatever suits your agenda...
 
Miranda Yardley said:
Gender is seen not as an oppressive power structure, but as a civil liberty.
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And that is the fucked up kernel at the heart of this, in my opinion.
Have you got any idea of a way forward please?
Trans people aren't going away, and I can totally see the positive potential in messing with gender, skewing it, wearing the 'wrong' clothes etc (I've just bought a pinstripe mens suit but am not in any way trans) so what is the way to make this a good moment for women and everyone not a shit get back in your box one?
 
kabbes said:
You think it’s all ok then? Justified? Nothing to worry about?.
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Nobody with the slightest sense of proportion thinks that some feminists organizing a bike ride and saying in their promotional material that their bike ride is trans inclusive is something to worry about. You’d have to be an anti-trans obsessive to get worried about it.
 
spanglechick said:
Oh shut up you patronising wanker. I'm on the inclusionary side of this debate, and the overwhelming majority of your posts make me face palm.
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To be fair, I'm struggling to think of any response to that particular tantrum that would have been productive.
 
bimble said:
And that is the fucked up kernel at the heart of this, in my opinion.
Have you got any idea of a way forward please?
Trans people aren't going away, and I can totally see the positive potential in messing with gender, skewing it, wearing the 'wrong' clothes etc (I've just bought a pinstripe mens suit but am not in any way trans) so what is the way to make this a good moment for women and everyone not a shit get back in your box one?
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Join a campaign. Talk to your friends, that kind of thing. That's the way forward
 
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