Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Pickman's model]

This one maybe not but I wonder if the Young Labour requirement might not even be illegal. To require of women to self-identify as women to stand for any posts restricted to women. It's all going backwards

I imagine the conversation might go "so you want to join" "yes" "are you a woman?" "yes" "sorted"
Or maybe even just a tick box on the form

 

[Nigel Irritable]

*waves* yes, that's it Nigel, that's why it makes me not want to go, because I'm a bigot, offended by someone else's very existence.

It can be hard to come to terms with our own failings, but you do seem to be finally starting to grapple with some of your own.

 

[MochaSoul]

I imagine the conversation might go "so you want to join" "yes" "are you a woman?" "yes" "sorted"

I hope so. Because if the question is "Do you identify as a woman?" that's a lot of women out.

 

[8ball]

I might go and tell them I self define as a man, shit them right up.

I think it's clear from the sign that you wouldn't be allowed in.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

*waves* yes, that's it Nigel, that's why it makes me not want to go, because I'm a bigot, offended by someone else's very existence.

Which is exactly this:

 

[Pickman's model]

And therein is the problem: you can bet the lefty men on this board won't support you, as a woman, being allowed to define your own spaces.

Yeh. And I think I'd win a bet on whether your certainty was based solely on speculation

 

[smokedout]

Excellent. Cis women shouldn't go because people who "self-identify" as women are more important.

Isn't there a difference between self identifying as and self defining as?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I didn't see any mention of "Trans women" in the poster.

Even you were capable of understanding which groups of people the ad was including.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Even you were capable of understanding which groups of people the ad was including.

Even me?

No, it definitely said those who self-identify as women.

No mention of transpeople.

 

[8ball]

Isn't there a difference between self identifying as and self defining as?

I figured it was like self-certifying as having food poisoning.

 

[8ball]

Which is exactly this:

Has Nigel told someone they were born in the wrong body?

 

[andysays]

How exactly does making it clear that trans women and non binary people are welcome imply that cis women are less important? The only people that wording excludes are (a) men and (b) bigots who are so offended by the existence of trans people that they’d rather exclude themselves than attend the same event as them.

How does 'all who self define as women' include non-binary people? The latter term seems to me to mean people who don't define as either men or women, unless someone can explain why this wouldn't be the case

 

[8ball]

And therein is the problem: you can bet the lefty men on this board won't support you, as a woman, being allowed to define your own spaces.

Awful lot of hatred in those pics badly dressed up as feminism.

 

[Pickman's model]

Awful lot of hatred in those pics badly dressed up as feminism.

I'd expect nothing less from Miranda

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Awful lot of hatred in those pics badly dressed up as feminism.

Exactly what in there is hateful?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Even me?

No, it definitely said those who self-identify as women.

No mention of transpeople.

Yes, even you are capable of understanding from that language what groups of people the women who created this event are seeking to include. And you and certain others here are offended by their choice and by their implication that those who want to police the boundaries of gender are not themselves welcome.

 

[bimble]

Oh good, Nigel is back. That's what this thread was missing.

 

[8ball]

Exactly what in there is hateful?

I'm not even going to pretend to buy the faux naif act any more.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

How does 'all who self define as women' include non-binary people? The latter term seems to me to mean people who don't define as either men or women, unless someone can explain why this wouldn't be the case

Why don’t you try reading the ad again? “All those who self-identify as women” doesn’t include non binary people. The organisers of this event listed non binary people as a separate category of people who are welcome.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I'm not even going to pretend to buy the faux naif act any more.

You said it was hateful; what is hateful? Or can't you quite put your finger on it?

 

[snadge]

What do people here think of Blaire White?

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

True story:

I self-identified that I had an ear infection yesterday so I went to the doctor who confirmed it by looking into my ear with an earoscope and seeing a HUGE build up of fluid.

It was quite funny, he wrote me a prescription and then said while doing it "Take these antibiotics after two days if you don't feel better, I'll give you them cos I can tell you're not faking"

I must have looked at him funny because he followed it up with "you wouldn't believe the amount of people come to me faking ear infections."

I looked at him and said "why would anyone fake an ear infection when you can so easily check"? He shrugged his shoulders.

I didn't self define me ear infection. I identified it on the basis that I felt like I was swimming underwater, couldn't hear properly and had a massive pain in my ear. And then the doctor confirmed it by observing it.

Had I self defined my ear infection I'd be telling a different story..

There's an allegory in there somewhere.

 

[Pickman's model]

What do people here think of Blaire White?

The my of the trans world apparently, Milo yadayada

 

[kabbes]

Women's bike project, great!

View attachment 125159

Open to all who self-define as women, oh.

It’s a great example of what I meant when I said that the tail is wagging the dog, where trans issues are being considered first or as a primary focus in relation to things where they more properly belong as an adjunct. If you want to put on a woman’s ride, your attention should be on the issues women might face on that ride and your poster should be about how to encourage women to come along.

You can of course work out your trans policy separately so that it is available to be applied as required and you can answer any questions people might have about it, but this is a niche issue that really doesn’t need to go into the headline information. Anything you put on the poster, you are basically saying is the most important information for people to know, and it sets the whole tone and message of the event. Bringing it front and centre like this is making yet another event that is supposed to be about women’s issues into an event about trans issues.

 

[bimble]

snadge I've watched a couple of their videos (Blaire White's ), liked her for the not giving a shit about being liked, but still it came across as a totally individualist perspective, though more self-aware than many.

 

[8ball]

IAnything you put on the poster, you are basically saying is the most important information for people to know, and it sets the whole tone and message of the event. Bringing it front and centre like this is making yet another even that is supposed to be about women’s issues into an event about trans issues.

Might not have been as calculated as that - might just have been the case that one of the people involved in the event is trans and wanted it clear on the poster that trans people are welcome. People organising bike rides often don't have media and branding consultants on staff.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Blaire white? Mainly wrong, occasionally right but fir the wrong reasons.

 

[Sue]

It can be hard to come to terms with our own failings, but you do seem to be finally starting to grapple with some of your own.

Oh fuck off Nigel.

 

[bimble]

Crap i've just looked again, and Blaire White's more recent stuff is all about the 'cultural marxists' and being unapologeticaly white.

 

[crossthebreeze]

Exactly. The current system which requires trans people to jump through hoops convincing various people that they are 'living as a woman' must heavily enforce the rules of what women are supposed to look and act like.

I've got two trans women friends who I've talked about this with, and they have very different experiences of the hoops.

One friend was told she had to do the whole dresses, heels, and make up thing - which really is not her style - before she had any access to surgical treatment to ease the overwhelming sex dysphoria she experienced or was able to get a GRC, and says that she got zero psychological/psychiatric support for anything she might have needed help with, and found the whole process very distressing.

Another friend said she found the doctors really helpful in challenging what were then her rigid ideas about gender (she says at that point she was almost living two separate lives) and letting her explore her identity and different ways of being, and credits the therapy she had at that point with her being able to live a full and happy life - and she worries that if doctors aren't part of the official process then the NHS will stop providing this therapy to trans people (and people who don't define at trans but have similar issues) who need it.

Obviously that's just conversations I've had and its as much "100s of pms of support" as anything, and other people might have different experiences again (I see MY has written about theirs). Personally, I have a massive distrust of psychiatry (its history of sexism and homophobia, the way it pathologises trauma, the horrendous side effects of some drugs, etc), and I can see that the current process is shit for non-binary people especially. But at the same time, I think that self-definition goes too much the other way - I think the key thing is there has to be some sort of social process and any legal definitions or official process also need to have some kind of basis in the social (and also needs to weed out sex offenders and the like).