Not by you they haven't. I'll ask again, do you think autogynephilia is the driver of childhood MtF transgenderism?
Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?
- Thread starter The Flying Pig
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Not by you they haven't. I'll ask again, do you think autogynephilia is the driver of childhood MtF transgenderism?
TruXta
tired
If that's the official position of Blanchard et al, then the theory is as currently formulated unfalsifiable, and on the face of it unlikely to be true.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
I see that, with their usual sensitivity to the views of lesser beings, the British TERFs have added a Dublin date to their "UK" speaking tour. It seems that the natives aren't doing their feminism in a bigoted enough way, so some sensible Brits have to come to the colonies to tell them how to do it.
It will be interesting to see if they manage to find any Irish-based speakers. They certainly won't have anyone representing any Irish feminist organisation or abortion rights campaign. As previously mentioned in this thread, all such groups here are trans inclusive and their most frequent interaction with TERFs occur when British "gender critical feminists" spend a couple of days trolling the social media accounts of Irish abortion campaigns.
It will be interesting to see if they manage to find any Irish-based speakers. They certainly won't have anyone representing any Irish feminist organisation or abortion rights campaign. As previously mentioned in this thread, all such groups here are trans inclusive and their most frequent interaction with TERFs occur when British "gender critical feminists" spend a couple of days trolling the social media accounts of Irish abortion campaigns.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Well abortion's the number 1 issue for transwomen in Ireland, especially their inability to access it and those silly women 'feminists' probably just don't understand that. They're all timorous of what they can't understand, as you've repeatedly pointed out.
I don't know if there's a trend but very young girls can develop anorexia. I think EDs are very complex and it's not really fashionable to think about them in terms of developmental conflict; there have been studies showing some links with sexual abuse and now links with ASD, views on etiology change. But the meaning or function of skipping the developmental stage that is puberty is probably worth thinking about.
It's pretty bonkers. As well as claiming all transwomen who are sexually orientated towards women are driven by erotic fantasies of themselves as a woman it suggests that transwomen who are attracted to men are driven by a desire to be more attractive to straight men. And it does nothing to explain transmen.
This hasn't stopped it being presented by some trans critical feminists as a proved, scientific and comprehensive theory of transgenderism - hence the 'transsexuality is a male sexual rights movement' meme they are so fond of.
Cloo
Banana for scale
I tell you, as per thread title, this doesn't half make my brain hurt. [Flippancy alert] Apparently so far from what I've read in various places trans people hate women, hate gay people (or is it that gay people hate them?), want children to be genderless, want to pressure loads of children to have medical transitions, are just people with a fetish about having different genitalia, are upholding a conservative gender binary, are going to confuse everyone so much that no one will understand boundaries of ANYTHING sexual ever again, think that everyone who doesn't want to fuck them is a transphobe, are men who just want to get into women's spaces so they can take everything away from women, are left wing, are right wing and probably kick dogs.
Or maybe they are just a small (larger than people might think, but still small) collection of different people who should be allowed to live their lives without everyone else having a moral panic or existential crisis about it.
Or maybe they are just a small (larger than people might think, but still small) collection of different people who should be allowed to live their lives without everyone else having a moral panic or existential crisis about it.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
I realise that TERFs like to focus obsessively on the dangers posed by the fearsome transwoman menace and to ignore transmen and non-binary people (except for an occasional bit of concern trolling about teenage girls being led astray), but really it shouldn't be be all that hard to understand that access to abortion rights is actually an issue of immediate personal concern to many people in the latter two groups.
All of the Irish feminist groups and campaign groups that make up the abortion rights movement here (Abortion Rights Campaign, Alliance for Choice, Coalition to Repeal the 8th, ROSA, etc) are trans inclusive for exactly that reason. Just about all of them have been subjected to bursts of sustained trolling on social media by British TERFs more interested in attacking women campaigning for abortion rights for using trans inclusive language than they are in helping those women to gain abortion rights.
Still though, I'm sure your friends will be able to set the natives right. Irish feminists clearly don't know what's best for them and need the wiser metropolitan TERFs of the colonial power to explain things.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Sorry, I put that very badly, and really didn’t mean to minimise or disniss your point about the fear of pregnancy.
But - we’ll, firstly I didn’t say anything about the effect of pregnancy itself, because my point was about those women who don’t experience it, those who haven’t had periods even, or possibly even never had sex. We’re looking for a universal commonality here, so the experience and consequences of pregnancy can’t be it.
I totally get that the fear of pregnancy can and does start earlier than puberty, but that isn’t an entirely universal either. Obviously no one was on the pill sixty years ago. Not that much earlier than that girls were being married off in ‘preparation’ for motherhood (whether they could experience it or not). But these are social restrictions and oppressions, not biological/material ones. Which isn’t to say it’s not important, just that it’s different.
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
Lesbians who don't want to sleep with trans women who still have penises are pretty worried about pregnancy.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Well quite. And the last thing we want is for Irish feminists and English ones to be talking to each other, God knows where that will end.
Treacle Toes
Time
My impression is/was that fear of pregnancy isn't one of the important concerns in that scenario at all...
Maybe I am wrong?
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
Why would you be on the pill if you're a lesbian? You don't even have to have penetrative sex to get pregnant. As girls are warned in sex ed at school you can get pregnant without the male ejaculating, by transfer of semen in pre-cum from the penis by one or other of you's fingers. Seems an important concern to me.My impression is/was that fear of pregnancy isn't one of the important concerns in that scenario at all...
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Maybe that's why.
Treacle Toes
Time
You are thinking about it in a much more risk based way than I. I was thinking in terms of sexual choice/preference. Lesbians don't expect or want a partner with a penis, and primarily/most importantly I don't think that is because they fear getting pregnant.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
To use the vernacular, from a degree of personal experience mixed with reading on the matter, I'd guess that most lesbians just aren't that much into the cock.
Treacle Toes
Time
Well quite...what I think we are talking about here is why? ..which is not the conversation I imagined having. I thought I knew why and accepted that.
Puddy_Tat
naturally fluffy
i must admit i was being slightly flippant in response to a post somewhere in today's stuff which (and i can't be bothered to search for it) said it was a fear for 'all women'
but i'm really not quite sure what you're getting at here.
and i really hope i'm reading it wrong.
yes, of course pregnancy is a possible issue if you have sex with someone who has the opposite sort of reproductive bits, no matter how they appear outwardly (and pregnancy - or the risk of it - is no doubt be an issue for some trans-men who have sex with men), and i'm sure that thinking / talking about this is part of the process of informed consent for trans people and people who have sex with trans people.
i don't attempt to speak for all trans people, and i am sure that some are some trans people who are (for the want of a gender neutral term) an arse when it comes to sex and relationships.
but what i seriously don't believe is that there's anything like a significant number of trans people whose bits don't match the gender they present as who are out there trying to trick or coerce people into having sex with them...
8ball
Decolonise colons!
I don't really know why. I just took it as an element of definition of 'lesbian'.
I just figured 'hey, biology'. Like I do with a lot of things, some of which are very "un-proper-Urbanz".
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
What I'm getting at is that there's other reasons why lesbians might not want to sleep with trans women besides bigotry or just not liking cocks.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
It would seem a serious stretch to believe something like that. To me, anyway.
You'd need something statistically pushing trans people very hard in the direction of coerciveness.
Puddy_Tat
naturally fluffy
i can't really speak for lesbians either, but i don't think there's a definitive set of rules about what (or who) you can and can't do. there isn't for gay men (especially if you include men who have sex with men but who don't identify as gay)
then there's people who are bisexual, pansexual (from what i gather this means they don't accept there being a binary of genders) or queer (similar only more so)
real life isn't tidy.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Aside from the same reason a lot of men wouldn't want to sleep with someone who was born a man, you mean?
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
Yes
that's my point.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Yeah, not speaking for lesbians obv, but just going by what I've been told and the meaning of the word. It seems a fairly straight overlap between how lesbians feel about penises and gay men feel about vaginas, even though they can often recognise people of the opposite sex as being attractive in many ways.
(this is not to say it is *just* the genitals influencing attraction obv)
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Yes
Do you mean the reason I said *is* the reason, or that there's another obvious reason I'm missing?
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Irish feminists do talk with English feminists. Particularly those English feminists who are interested in helping out the largest scale feminist struggle currently ongoing in Western Europe, one that extends to a part of the British state.
It's their long experience that the TERF minority faction of British feminism is more interested in pursuing their all consuming obsession with being malicious to and about trans people than they are in showing any solidarity with women struggling for abortion rights. That for instance, articles that Irish feminists publish about abortion which use trans inclusive language will frequently get dozens or hundreds of vitriolic and bigoted denunciatory responses from British TERFs who never bother to engage with them on the central issue they are campaigning on or to offer any help.
Many of those British TERFs are so obsessed with transwomen, by the way, that they frequently believe that the trans inclusive language used by Irish abortion campaigns must be about including transwomen rather than transmen and non binary people. The same conclusion you jumped to.
And now rather than getting involved in organisations like the Abortion Support Network, or London ARC or Women on Web or organising public meeting or protests in England about the absence of abortion rights in NI, the British TERFs are organising a public meeting in Dublin about their own hobbyhorse. People's priorities can be very revealing.
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
Besides that reason
a man sleeping with someone who was born a man isn't risking pregnancy.- Status
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