Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Miranda Yardley]

I completely agree. Which is why it makes far more sense to me to say 'trans women should be treated as women in compassionate grounds'; much harder to dispute than a wholly unprovable philosophical claim that they are women.

A lot of people would agree with this statement.

 

[Pickman's model]

As someone who is an actual transitioned transsexual, I can assure you that there is no significant obstacle to getting passports that say whatever you wish, and that the whole toilets thing is a red herring: if someone is or has undergone a medical transition, they should be able to participate freely in public life.

Er surely everyone should be able to participate freely in public life

 

[Athos]

Is that marked on the passport? As I say, what you or I think doesn't really matter, whereas the legal status does.

You think the law is based on a philosophical understanding of how trans women meet the definition of a 'woman'? It's a pragmatic, balance of harms thing. A far more sensible footing than a meaningless slogan.

 

[belboid]

Not being funny, but you really don't appear to understand even the basics. The work of mine I have shared with you has been seen by Blanchard, and he's been happy to share it while favourably commenting on the understanding I have demonstrated.

Sorry, is he agreeing with you on the bits you disagree with, too? Most people with obscure, pet, theories are happy with others to share them, and comment reasonably on them. So what?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Er surely everyone should be able to participate freely in public life

Yes of course they should.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Sorry, is he agreeing with you on the bits you disagree with, too? Most people with obscure, pet, theories are happy with others to share them, and comment reasonably on them. So what?

There you go, poisoning the well...

 

[smokedout]

smokedout It's dishonest attribute a quote by Blanchard to Miranda Yardley, to bolster your claim that they insisted "all trans women do so for a sexual reason", when they'd explicitly referred to 'some'.

She either supports Blanchard's theory or she doesn't. And Blanchard said all - it has to be all, otherwise it might be something else.

But I'm sure she can speak for herself if she disagrees.

 

[belboid]

You think the law is based on a philosophical understanding of how trans women meet the definition of a 'woman'? It's a pragmatic, balance of harms thing. A far more sensible footing than a meaningless slogan.

Of course I don't, where on earth do you get from? My point is that your response said absolutely nothing about the important question. It is an obfuscation behind philosophical niceties. My point is that, contra MY, someone should not need to undergo a medical transition to legally change sex/gender (whichever term your local law refers to). It is that the current GRA needs extending, not repealing.

 

[belboid]

There you go, poisoning the well...

Your well has run dry, I'm afraid.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

She either supports Blanchard's theory or she doesn't. And Blanchard said all - it has to be all, otherwise it might be something else.

But I'm sure she can speak for herself of she disagrees.

If you read my work, I have explained why his language may sound unfriendly, it's more to do with objectivity. Anyway, what it all comes down to is whether or not the typology appears to describe the real world. And the vast number of transgender male 'lesbians' out there posting images of themselves in lingerie suggests it is good in that regard.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Your well has run dry, I'm afraid.

I can assure you it is bountiful.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Of course I don't, where on earth do you get from? My point is that your response said absolutely nothing about the important question. It is an obfuscation behind philosophical niceties. My point is that, contra MY, someone should not need to undergo a medical transition to legally change sex/gender (whichever term your local law refers to). It is that the current GRA needs extending, not repealing.

You are aware a huge number of transsexuals oppose self-ID, not just here but across the world? And you are aware that the GRA currently requires an intent to undergo some treatment, although not surgery?

Seriously though, if transition is not medical, if one doesn't have surgery, does transition have any meaning at all?

 

[smokedout]

If you read my work, I have explained why his language may sound unfriendly, it's more to do with objectivity. Anyway, what it all comes down to is whether or not the typology appears to describe the real world. And the vast number of transgender male 'lesbians' out there posting images of themselves in lingerie suggests it is good in that regard.

So not all. Just some people you've seen on the internet. It's not really a comprehensive theory of transsexuality if it is only some transwomen, and ignores transmen.

Are you going to answer my question about whether trans children are also driven by autogynephilia, I'd say it's quite important?

 

[Athos]

She either supports Blanchard's theory or she doesn't. And Blanchard said all - it has to be all, otherwise it might be something else.

But I'm sure she can speak for herself if she disagrees.

I'm sure they can. If they have the will to engage with someone as disingenuous as you.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

So not all. Just some people you've seen on the internet. It's not really a comprehensive theory of transsexuality if it is only some transwomen, and ignores transmen.

Are you going to answer my question about whether trans children are also driven by autogynephilia, I'd say it's quite important?

It's very good at describing transsexuality in males.

For children, I addressed the point above for children who are highly GNC when young, who likely will grow up to be gay or lesbian. If you read Anne Lawrence's book, the issue of autogynephilia in children is examined in there. There is less commonality seen in females who transition although a vector foundational upon some erotic etiology is not discounted. This does NOT mean autogynephilia exists in women. Given the epidemic of transitioning girls, particularly with rapid onset gender dysphoria, I think we need good quality, unbiased research to find out the truth.

 

[smokedout]

It's very good at describing transsexuality in males.

For children, I addressed the point above for children who are highly GNC when young, who likely will grow up to be gay or lesbian. If you read Anne Lawrence's book, the issue of autogynephilia in children is examined in there.

I don't want to have to read a book to find out what you think. Perhaps you could just answer the question.

 

[Mation]

'Listen to trans people... NO NOT THAT ONE!'

Nope. It's because I'm also listening to you that I don't want to row with you and would rather step back. I don't agree with you. That doesn't mean I haven't heard you. But I'm cis and so not best placed to tell you the ways in which I think you are wrong*.

I'll reserve that for cis people.

*E2a, as it wasn't clear: about other people whose experience of being trans is different to yours.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I don't want to have to read a book to find out what you think. Perhaps you could just answer the question.

I was referring you to Lawrence's commentary on research reported on behaviour... your questions have been answered.

 

[Athos]

Of course I don't, where on earth do you get from? My point is that your response said absolutely nothing about the important question. It is an obfuscation behind philosophical niceties. My point is that, contra MY, someone should not need to undergo a medical transition to legally change sex/gender (whichever term your local law refers to). It is that the current GRA needs extending, not repealing.

Oh, it wasn't clear that was your point. If it is, I agree.

 

[trashpony]

The fear of getting pregnant. Sure, there are women who can't. But they usually only find that out as adults. Every female who's sexually active has had the terror of the possibility of an unwanted pregnancy. Trans women will never have that and even before they transitioned they can never really understand it. It's not the same fear for a man.

I think it kicks in earlier. Getting breasts was a massive (unwanted) deal for me. Referrals to trans clinics for girls/young women have exploded in the last few years. I wonder if there is a corresponding drop in eating disorders. Dysphoria is pretty much a state of being for teenage girls.

 

[Mation]

Your whole position is a statement, the meaning of which you admit you don't understand?

I didn't say I don't understand. I said I can't define.

 

[belboid]

You are aware a huge number of transsexuals oppose self-ID, not just here but across the world? And you are aware that the GRA currently requires an intent to undergo some treatment, although not surgery?

That is why I said the GRA needed extending, not repealing. So your response is either nonsense or deliberately disingenuous.

Seriously though, if transition is not medical, if one doesn't have surgery, does transition have any meaning at all?

Yes

 

[belboid]

I quick reminder of why personal compassion isn't enough - Transgender inmate 'quit suicide pact'

 

[Athos]

I didn't say I don't understand. I said I can't define.

Ok. What do you understand 'a woman' to be?

My point is the same.

 

[snadge]

Asked this question before without an answer so I will rephrase it a little stronger.

Why is there a huge schism in the MtF transgender community?

 

[weepiper]

'Every female who's sexually active' - that excludes a fair few women. And doesn't (materially) apply to pre-pubescent girls (though I do get there might well still be the fear from knowing it is 'what happens' to girls). But is that really it? And, while the fear wont affect a trans woman, some of the material consequences will. And if the immutable difference is down to a fear, then its not a material distinction, is it? And that distinction has been held up as inviolable before. Sorry if this isn't very clear, just trying to think it through as I write.

Female children have it drummed into them from well before puberty that unwanted pregnancy is the End Of The World. Girls are put on the pill at 13 or 14 because parents are so afraid of it. And tbf, pregnancy does literally change your life forever for women. Both physically (your whole body is affected, little things you might not be aware of like your feet get permanently a size bigger, stretch marks, scars, abdominal wall weaknesses, all sorts of stuff) and socially (goodbye the social life you knew before, goodbye to your career in the way you recognise it pre-children, goodbye to financial independence for many many women). These things affect all of us. Yes, even rich women. Your dismissal of this as 'is that really all?' speaks volumes about how little you understand about how female biology affects us. We can't identify our way out of it. It's limiting.

 

[Red Cat]

I think it kicks in earlier. Getting breasts was a massive (unwanted) deal for me. Referrals to trans clinics for girls/young women have exploded in the last few years. I wonder if there is a corresponding drop in eating disorders. Dysphoria is pretty much a state of being for teenage girls.

Interesting question.

I've been thinking about it in relation to EDs too. Obviously EDs are very complex and can't be reduced to any one cause but anorexia tends to be talked about in terms of girls anxiety about puberty and sexuality, fear of the conflicts of adolescence, not wanting to grow up.

 

[TruXta]

Interesting question.

I've been thinking about it in relation to EDs too. Obviously EDs are very complex and can't be reduced to any one cause but anorexia tends to be talked about in terms of girls anxiety about puberty and sexuality, fear of the conflicts of adolescence, not wanting to grow up.

*DERAIL ALERT*

We know that the age of onset of puberty has fallen drastically in Western countries over the last century. With all the usual caveats about statistics etc, has there been a corresponding decrease in the age at which anorexia/other EDs is first diagnosed?

*DERAIL OVER*

 

[TruXta]

Back on the topic of Blanchard's theory of autogynephilia - isn't it in essence unfalsifiable? If MtF "non-homosexual" transsexuals deny being erotically attracted to the image or reality of themselves as females, surely that's proof the theory is incorrect? Or am I missing something blindingly obvious?

 

[smokedout]

Back on the topic of Blanchard's theory of autogynephilia - isn't it in essence unfalsifiable? If MtF "non-homosexual" transsexuals deny being erotically attracted to the image or reality of themselves as females, surely that's proof the theory is incorrect? Or am I missing something blindingly obvious?

They're liars. And that's science.