Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Miranda Yardley]

As I'm sure you know, the studies on desistance have been widely criticised for including children who would not meet the threshold for gender dysphoria, and some of the studies Cantor references were not even looking for that but were focussed on feminine or effeminate boys. He also ignores the follow up work done on the larger study which found:

Quoting from Cantor's piece:

This is not a matter of scientists disagreeing with one another over relative strengths and weaknesses across a set of conflicting reports. The disagreement is not even some people advocating for one set of studies with other people advocating for different set of studies: Rather, activists are rejecting the unanimous conclusion of every single study ever conducted on the question in favour of a conclusion supported by not one.

Importantly, these results should not be exaggerated in the other direction either: The correct answer is neither 0% nor 100%. Although the majority of transgender kids desist, it is not a large majority. A very substantial proportion do indeed want to transition as they get older, and we need to ensure they receive the support they will need. Despite loud, confident protestations of extremists, the science shows very clearly and very consistently that we cannot take either outcome for granted.

 

[belboid]

Please explain what you mean as 'present as they choose' without referring to cultural stereotypes. Thank you.

I am talking about practical, material (in the marxist sense) actions. Schools should accept them wearing the uniform assigned to the other sex/gender. They should allow them to take a new name. You are against that, no?

I do also think that schools should abolish uniforms entirely, especially as prescribed by sex, but their failure to do so shouldn't stop pupils attending as the sex/gender they wish.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I must be reading a different thread from some people. Smokedout's contributions have been massively helpful to me.

 

[Mation]

Not my expectation. A woman (ie not a transwoman) who pushes a reactionary gender role for women should absolutely expect criticism from radicals. Do you not agree with that?

If I've made any distinction between women and transwomen on this thread in terms of this specific issue it's as clear as I can make it that, it is more understandable if some transwomen emphasise/espouse/adopt a reactionary female gender role so as to normalise their own (highly marginalised) status in society. I clearly have not criticised individuals for doing this, to me it's obviously wrong to do so. This is all on the thread.

But to criticise the gender roles being espoused - yes of course that should be permitted, encouraged in fact. It's not imo transphobic to do that, just because some of the fans of those roles happen to be transgendered. But when I have done that on these boards in the past I have absolutely been damned, multiply, for transphobia and there are still quite a few posters who seem to me to be itching to do that again.

Trans women are women. As such they should be allowed to be as politically sound or unsound as cis women.

E2A: Even that's a shit position (mine, as expressed up thar). They just are as sound or unsound as cis women and there shouldn't be any allowed about it, as far as who anyone is. Challenge people's beliefs, yes.

 

[smokedout]

This isn’t a general theory, and I know for a fact that at least three of those individuals disagree with my interpretation (even though I use their own words).

What does seem to be the case is that transgender individuals fall into two groups: homosexual and non-homosexual. And the latter have an autogynephilic history. And that’s okay as long as we are honest about it. Indeed, honestly means these trans males could have happier and more fulfilling lives, gained through self knowledge.

So to summarise, transwomen who are sexually orientated towards women are lying fetishists?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Ok, I get the definition there. So back to the question of who is the arbiter of who is autogenephilic? You previously said 'it is what it is' but where is the evidence that this 'condition' isn't just one persons' pet theory (that resonates with some other people) or that it actually applies to anyone or that it is relevant to any/many/most/all trans people?

As the piece I linked to shows, it's been around as an idea for at least a century and has been the subject of scientific study for at least that long. It's quite cool to get a grip on the typology because with understanding comes insight. Objections to the typology don't appear to stand up to scrutiny, and there is no alternative understanding that has any serious traction.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Trans women are women. As such they should be allowed to be as politically sound or unsound as cis women.

That's an ideological position.

 

[belboid]

Now you really are reaching...

No, I am pointing out the evidence you chose to promote your argument was exceptionally weak. This is why you are now moving on, I guess (after a bit of quoting your own pieces)

Check out these places which will show you great examples of autogynephilia. The last is based on a rebranding of it as 'crossdreaming', similar to Serano's own attempted rebranding as 'female embodiment fantasies':

Free Contacts & Dating for Transgender, Transvestite & Crossdressing Friends | tvChix
Susan's Place Transgender Resources - Index
Crossdreamers

These seem to largely remove the paraphilic aspects of the original 'theory' which is quite a significant change you are claiming.

 

[Mation]

That's an ideological position.

In your opinion.

 

[Mation]

As the piece I linked to shows, it's been around as an idea for at least a century and has been the subject of scientific study for at least that long. It's quite cool to get a grip on the typology because with understanding comes insight. Objections to the typology don't appear to stand up to scrutiny, and there is no alternative understanding that has any serious traction.

Oh well in that case! If only I'd realised it had been around for a long time. Of course that makes it sensible!

 

[Miranda Yardley]

So to summarise, transwomen who are sexually orientated towards women are lying fetishists?

Those are your words. not mine.

You might find this conceptualisation more compassionate:

http://www.annelawrence.com/becoming_what_we_love.pdf

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Oh well in that case! If only I'd realised it had been around for a long time. Of course that makes it sensible!

You framed it as an individual's pet theory. I showed it's not.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

In your opinion.

Define 'woman'...

 

[Mation]

Define 'woman'...

I can't and wouldn't try to.

You framed it as an individual's pet theory. I showed it's not.

That's fair.

 

[belboid]

The fear of getting pregnant. Sure, there are women who can't. But they usually only find that out as adults. Every female who's sexually active has had the terror of the possibility of an unwanted pregnancy. Trans women will never have that and even before they transitioned they can never really understand it. It's not the same fear for a man.

'Every female who's sexually active' - that excludes a fair few women. And doesn't (materially) apply to pre-pubescent girls (though I do get there might well still be the fear from knowing it is 'what happens' to girls). But is that really it? And, while the fear wont affect a trans woman, some of the material consequences will. And if the immutable difference is down to a fear, then its not a material distinction, is it? And that distinction has been held up as inviolable before. Sorry if this isn't very clear, just trying to think it through as I write.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

No, I am pointing out the evidence you chose to promote your argument was exceptionally weak. This is why you are now moving on, I guess (after a bit of quoting your own pieces)

These seem to largely remove the paraphilic aspects of the original 'theory' which is quite a significant change you are claiming.

These all contain examples of autogynephilia. And like I said. it's okay as long as we can be honest about it.

 

[smokedout]

Quoting from Cantor's piece:

This is not a matter of scientists disagreeing with one another over relative strengths and weaknesses across a set of conflicting reports. The disagreement is not even some people advocating for one set of studies with other people advocating for different set of studies: Rather, activists are rejecting the unanimous conclusion of every single study ever conducted on the question in favour of a conclusion supported by not one.

Importantly, these results should not be exaggerated in the other direction either: The correct answer is neither 0% nor 100%. Although the majority of transgender kids desist, it is not a large majority. A very substantial proportion do indeed want to transition as they get older, and we need to ensure they receive the support they will need. Despite loud, confident protestations of extremists, the science shows very clearly and very consistently that we cannot take either outcome for granted.

Well apart from the fact several of the studies he is referring to did not look at gender dysphoric children, and as such should not be included as evidence of desistance. And as I just posted later work which Cantor has ignored found that the strength of gender dysphoria was a good indicator of whether it would persist into adulthool.

Which would suggest that precise diagnosis is very important and that intervention, such as puberty blockers, should be used with great care. Which is what happens.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I can't and wouldn't try to.

My own view is that the statement 'trans women are women' while it may be a fine piece of rhetoric, is not good for 'trans women' or for women.

Finding Middle Ground Between Women’s Rights and Transgender Rights

 

[belboid]

These all contain examples of autogynephilia. And like I said. it's okay as long as we can be honest about it.

Well, I'm not searching through three sites to find examples to find examples of where these fantasies include 'the suffering or humiliation of oneself or one's partner' - because that is was a paraphilia is, and the original piece made that central. At a quick look at this theory I had never heard of before, you have added your own twist on it. Which means it isn't really a theory going around for a century or so.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Well apart from the facts several of the studies he is referring to did not look at gender dysphoric children, and as such should not be included as evidence of desistance. And as I just posted later work which Cantor has ignored found that the strength of gender dysphoria was a good indicator of whether it would persist into adulthool.

Which would suggest that precise diagnosis is very important and that intervention, such as puberty blockers, should be used with great care. Which is what happens.

Point is that strength of GD is not a good indicator. One study does not break this finding. I can agree with you that intervention, e.g. blockers. should be used with great care and I'd suggest only in exceptional cases. It certainly should not become the norm.

 

[smokedout]

Those are your words. not mine.

You might find this conceptualisation more compassionate:

http://www.annelawrence.com/becoming_what_we_love.pdf

That's a rather bizarre position. That you insist people must have a sexual fetish despite them telling you otherwise. Do trans children, who don't desist, also have this sexual fetish? What about trans men?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Well, I'm not searching through three sites to find examples to find examples of where these fantasies include 'the suffering or humiliation of oneself or one's partner' - because that is was a paraphilia is, and the original piece made that central. At a quick look at this theory I had never heard of before, you have added your own twist on it. Which means it isn't really a theory going around for a century or so.

The file linked is a screen grab of the TVChix public landing page (so nobody's private information is being disclosed, this is public). Examples of autogynephilia are highlighted.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

That's a rather bizarre position. That you insist people must have a sexual fetish despite them telling you otherwise. Do trans children, who don't desist, also have this sexual fetish? What about trans men?

It is what it is. Autogynephilia is by definition a behaviour limited to males. Interestingly, a lot of 'trans men' tend to be homosexual females, yet 'trans women' tend to be heterosexual males.

 

[smokedout]

Point is that strength of GD is not a good indicator. One study does not break this finding.

But it's the same study, Steensma et al. (2013) that Cantor claims found 63% of kids desisted. So you appear to accept that part of the study, but not the conclusion that strength of dysphoria was the best indicated of whether it persisted to adulthood.

Cherry picking conclusions like this is not very scientific.

 

[belboid]

The file linked is a screen grab of the TVChix public landing page (so nobody's private information is being disclosed, this is public). Examples of autogynephilia are highlighted.

Are they? They looks like fairly typical, cliched even, examples of 'sexy women(swear)'. A completely different thing to "a man’s paraphilic tendency to be sexually aroused by the thought or image of himself as a woman."

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Are they? They looks like fairly typical, cliched even, examples of 'sexy women(swear)'. A completely different thing to "a man’s paraphilic tendency to be sexually aroused by the thought or image of himself as a woman."

You're almost there... almost...

 

[Mation]

My own view is that the statement 'trans women are women' while it may be a fine piece of rhetoric, is not good for 'trans women' or for women.

Finding Middle Ground Between Women’s Rights and Transgender Rights

I'm a cis woman. I have no desire or right to tell you what to think or feel.

I stand very firmly with with the trans women and men I know who do not think and feel as you do. (To be clear: not on principal regarding you, but from believing them about themselves.)

I also personally disagree that this is not good for cis women from my own perspective. But this is, I think, intractable, so I'm stepping out of it, certainly as far as you are concerned.

 

[belboid]

You're almost there... almost...

You havent done anything to show that those people are sexually aroused by the thought of themselves as a sexy woman, still less that they are desiring suffering or humiliation. Your claims are collapsing.

 

[Pickman's model]

You're almost there... almost...

Not sure there's worth getting to

 

[smokedout]

It is what it is. Autogynephilia is by definition a behaviour limited to males. Interestingly, a lot of 'trans men' tend to be homosexual females, yet 'trans women' tend to be heterosexual males.

That's not a very satisfactory answer. Do trans children experience this sexual fetish?

And if autogynephilia doesn't explain transmen, if that must be something else, then why can't it be something else for the huge number of transwomen who say they don't experience autogynephilia. Or perhaps for those that do autogynephilia is a symptom of that somethting else, not a cause. No matter how much you jump up and down and insist all transwomen do so for a sexual reason, you can't possibly know this, no-one knows. So your appeal for scientific debate seems pretty hollow.