Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[co-op]

I was largely, there just objecting to the phrase 'reproductive class' coming from someone who had earlier been talking about the marxist dialectic, and assuming it was meant in the sense that marx talks of a working class for and of itself. If it's meant simply as a synonym for groupings moer generally, then no problem.

I'm out of my depth quite fast on proper marxist feminist theory but I think feminists have argued that when the term a reproductive class is used, it means something much more than just another group. The use of the word class is quite deliberate.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

But it's the same study, Steensma et al. (2013) that Cantor claims found 63% of kids desisted. So you appear to accept that part of the study, but not the conclusion that strength of dysphoria was the best indicated of whether it persisted to adulthood.

Cherry picking conclusions like this is not very scientific.

He's not cherry-picking, he's reporting on what the study says; his piece is about desistance rates. He provides a balanced commentary on that study, thus:

Steensma therefore reported that (80/127 =) 63% of the cases desisted. The alleged criticism is that one should not assume that the 24 who did not respond or could not be found were desisters. Regardless of whether one agrees with that, the irrelevance of claim is clearly seen simply by taking it to its own conclusion: When one excludes these 24, one simply finds a desistance rate of (56/103 =) 54% instead of 63%. That is, although numerically lower, it nonetheless supports the very same conclusion as before. The majority of kids cease to feel transgender when they get older.​

And the central point of the piece is:

we cannot take either outcome for granted.​

Which I hope we could agree on?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

That's not a very satisfactory answer. Do trans children experience this sexual fetish?

And if autogynephilia doesn't explain transmen, if that must be something else, then why can't it be something else for the huge number of transwomen who say they don't experience autogynephilia. Or perhaps for those that do autogynephilia is a symptom of that somethting else, not a cause. No matter how much you jump up and down and insist all transwomen do so for a sexual reason, you can't possibly know this, no-one knows. So your appeal for scientific debate seems pretty hollow.

I linked above to a piece on how GNC behaviour in children is being equated to them being transgender.

You again misrepresent me, I didn't say all transgender males, and I tried to point out (through Anne Lawrence's piece) that the process is much more complicated and nuanced than a simple 'all transwomen do so for a sexual reason'. You are selling trans males short.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

You havent done anything to show that those people are sexually aroused by the thought of themselves as a sexy woman, still less that they are desiring suffering or humiliation. Your claims are collapsing.

They're all examples of autogynephilic behaviour...

 

[Athos]

No matter how much you jump up and down and insist all transwomen do so for a sexual reason...

They haven't insisted that. They referred to some, not all.

It's impossible to have a sensible discussion with you, when you keep being so disingenuous

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I'm a cis woman. I have no desire or right to tell you what to think or feel.

I stand very firmly with with the trans women and men I know who do not think and feel as you do. (To be clear: not on principal regarding you, but from believing them about themselves.)

I also personally disagree that this is not good for cis women from my own perspective. But this is, I think, intractable, so I'm stepping out of it, certainly as far as you are concerned.

'Listen to trans people... NO NOT THAT ONE!'

 

[co-op]

Trans women are women.

The entire debate is about what this actually means and yet you just repeat it as a truth undeniable. What's the point? Why were you happy with the term 'transwoman' if it literally means exactly the same thing as 'woman'?

 

[belboid]

They're all examples of autogynephilic behaviour...

No they're not. Not without substantial more evidence, anyway. You seem to have completely redefined the term.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

No they're not. Not without substantial more evidence, anyway. You seem to have completely redefined the term.

Erm no...

 

[belboid]

The entire debate is about what this actually means and yet you just repeat it as a truth undeniable. What's the point? Why were you happy with the term 'transwoman' if it literally means exactly the same thing as 'woman'?

It's about supporting the right to be legally recognised as women, about supporting the GRA, and about supporting much greater support for trans people in schools and in the health service.

 

[smokedout]

He's not cherry-picking, he's reporting on what the study says; his piece is about desistance rates. He provides a balanced commentary on that study, thus:

Steensma therefore reported that (80/127 =) 63% of the cases desisted. The alleged criticism is that one should not assume that the 24 who did not respond or could not be found were desisters. Regardless of whether one agrees with that, the irrelevance of claim is clearly seen simply by taking it to its own conclusion: When one excludes these 24, one simply finds a desistance rate of (56/103 =) 54% instead of 63%. That is, although numerically lower, it nonetheless supports the very same conclusion as before. The majority of kids cease to feel transgender when they get older.​

And the central point of the piece is:

we cannot take either outcome for granted.​

Which I hope we could agree on?

Of course not. But that study looked at children referred for gender dysphoria but not necessarily diagnosed. And it found the more intense the dysphoira the more likely it was to persist - in fact this was the key factor in being able to predict persistence. So what is wrong with letting these kids socially transition in childhood.

 

[campanula]

It is what it is. Autogynephilia is by definition a behaviour limited to males. Interestingly, a lot of 'trans men' tend to be homosexual females, yet 'trans women' tend to be heterosexual males.

In consideration of difference and discrepancies...

It is increasingly worrying that we are reaching for definitions (and a legal and medical framework) when the very nature of the debate (the seemingly impassable gulfs between individualised, emotional, philosophical ideological positions) and the equally contentious, always changing, always mediated, historical, cultural and social discourses, which refuse homogenous, monolithic (hegemonic) positions.. The urgent need for political validation seems to militate against gender theories which are open-ended, transparent and, most essentially, non-judgemental.

My position - vis a vis the much quoted 'transwomen are women' statement is an acceptance of 'woman' being a philosophical construct...therefore it seems reasonable for a transwoman to be in a state of 'becoming some sort of woman'. That's kind of as far as I would go...but much the same applies to my 6 year old grandchild...

 

[Red Cat]

I would like to advise caution about hoping that evidence based research will show us what is most beneficial for any kind of mental distress given the complexity involved. It's a phrase that gets tossed about that gives the illusion of answers being more readily available than is actually the case.

 

[smokedout]

They haven't insisted that. They referred to some, not all.

It's impossible to have a sensible division with you, when you keep being so disingenuous

Gender identity disturbance in males is always accompanied by one of two erotic anomalies. All gender dysphoric males who are not sexually oriented toward men are instead sexually oriented toward the thought or image of themselves as women. ​

 

[Athos]

Trans women are women.

Define 'woman'...

I can't...

Your whole position is a statement, the meaning of which you admit you don't understand?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And homosexuality is an 'erotic anomaly'. Nice.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Of course not. But that study looked at children referred for gender dysphoria but not necessarily diagnosed. And it found the more intense the dysphoira the more likely it was to persist - in fact this was the key factor in being able to predict persistence. So what is wrong with letting these kids socially transition in childhood.

If you read the paper, for boys age appears to be a significant factor, the older the less likely desistance. This would suggest caution over early transition.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

My position - vis a vis the much quoted 'transwomen are women' statement is an acceptance of 'woman' being a philosophical construct...therefore it seems reasonable for a transwoman to be in a state of 'becoming some sort of woman'. That's kind of as far as I would go...but much the same applies to my 6 year old grandchild...

It's an interesting idea and one which I have thought about a lot. It would take an awful lot of deconstruction of sex-based socialisation and gain in personal knowledge, possibly through listening to more women, maybe? Either way, we can still acknowledge difference and support each other for who and what we are.

 

[belboid]

Your whole position is a statement, the meaning of which you admit you don't understand?

It doesn't matter how you or I define 'woman,' it is the position in law that matters. The right to have the appropriate passport, and to be able to tell bigots that they have the full legal right to use the 'appropriate' toilet.

 

[Athos]

smokedout It's dishonest to attribute a quote by Blanchard to Miranda Yardley, to bolster your claim that they insisted "all trans women do so for a sexual reason", when they'd explicitly referred to 'some'.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

And homosexuality is an 'erotic anomaly'. Nice.

I don't agree it is. FWIW.

 

[belboid]

smokedout It's dishonest attribute a quote by Blanchard to Miranda Yardley, to bolster your claim that they insisted "all trans women do so for a sexual reason", when they'd explicitly referred to 'some'.

MY's use of Blanchard is very pick n mix. Which turns it into a wholly different theory which there is no other support for, that I can see.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

It doesn't matter how you or I define 'woman,' it is the position in law that matters. The right to have the appropriate passport, and to be able to tell bigots that they have the full legal right to use the 'appropriate' toilet.

As someone who is an actual transitioned transsexual, I can assure you that there is no significant obstacle to getting passports that say whatever you wish, and that the whole toilets thing is a red herring: if someone is or has undergone a medical transition, they should be able to participate freely in public life.

 

[Athos]

It doesn't matter how you or I define 'woman,' it is the position in law that matters. The right to have the appropriate passport, and to be able to tell bigots that they have the full legal right to use the 'appropriate' toilet.

I completely agree. Which is why it makes far more sense to me to say 'trans women should be treated as women in compassionate grounds'; much harder to dispute than a wholly unprovable philosophical claim that they are women.

 

[belboid]

As someone who is an actual transitioned transsexual, I can assure you that there is no significant obstacle to getting passports that say whatever you wish, and that the whole toilets thing is a red herring: if someone is or has undergone a medical transition, they should be able to participate freely in public life.

But not anyone else.

 

[Athos]

MY's use of Blanchard is very pick n mix. Which turns it into a wholly different theory which there is no other support for, that I can see.

I don't agree with a lot of what MY says. But we should at least be honest in the discussion.

 

[belboid]

I completely agree. Which is why it makes far more sense to me to say 'trans women should be treated as women in compassionate grounds'; much harder to dispute than a wholly unprovable claim that they are women.

Is that marked on the passport? As I say, what you or I think doesn't really matter, whereas the legal status does.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

MY's use of Blanchard is very pick n mix. Which turns it into a wholly different theory which there is no other support for, that I can see.

Not being funny, but you really don't appear to understand even the basics. The work of mine I have shared with you has been seen by Blanchard, and he's been happy to share it while favourably commenting on the understanding I have demonstrated.

 

[belboid]

I don't agree with a lot of what MY says. But we should at least be honest in the discussion.

Quite, but it is difficult to tell, sometimes.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I don't agree with a lot of what MY says. But we should at least be honest in the discussion.

Disagreement is good.