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Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

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No you're absolutely wrong, I absolutely did not 'describe' it. On the contrary I have repeatedly stated that the point here is not to make any one individual or group 'responsible' or more responsible for taking on the gender bullshit in which we are mired.

I have literally never mentioned policing the way women dress, or even 'the way that women dress' fullstop. Where are you getting this stuff from?
You're completely correct that you haven't literally mentioned policing in the posts of yours that I have read. And I was making an assumption.

My assumption was that when you said:

"too often 'being trans' (whatever that means) has been a way of re-stating and reifying deeply reactionary gender roles on the basis of some mysterious essence of 'woman'. Transitioning thus becomes not a way of challenging toxic patriarchal gender roles but merely an individualistic accommodation to those roles, part of which accommodation is ritual worship at the shrines of those gender roles one of which is the hyper-feminised woman."

...that you meant that you think that this is not what should be happening. "Too often" ie there should be less of this.

This, that we don't expect of cis women.
 
This isn’t a general theory, and I know for a fact that at least three of those individuals disagree with my interpretation (even though I use their own words).

What does seem to be the case is that transgender individuals fall into two groups: homosexual and non-homosexual. And the latter have an autogynephilic history. And that’s okay as long as we are honest about it. Indeed, honestly means these trans males could have happier and more fulfilling lives, gained through self knowledge.
Who is the arbiter of autogynephilia?
 
I think you missed the point of Cantor’s piece, in that left tomtheir own devices desistance is a common outcome. Medicalising transition early appears premature for that reason.

Furthermore affirmation of gender stereotypes seems weird given they’re cultural.
Quite, which is why I haven't seen anyone supporting medical intervention at any early age. What I see is people saying that schools etc should being accepting of the child's decision to dress, be named, etc according to their wishes. You seem to want to refuse them that option, to insist that the school treats them as whatever they were assigned at birth.

Again I think you miss the point, and this is not comparable to homosexuality. I notice also you talk about sleeping with ‘people of the same gender’. Surely you mean ‘sex’? Or does homosexuality mean nothing to you?
I probably do mean sex, the terms are used in contradictory manner in law and in life more generally. I am no doubt guilty of doing so too from time to time. You need to flesh out the other argument here though, because so far it is just a claim.

My point is, as ever, let kids be kids.
Absolutely, let Jeffrey become Jenny if that's what they want.
 
You seem to be acting obtuse on purpose. The vast majority of women will share that experience which Jenner never would.
What experience? You are being deliberately vague, it seems to me. And, you accept that there are some women who will not share that experience, which isn't the absolute universal you previously claimed.
 
Quite, which is why I haven't seen anyone supporting medical intervention at any early age. What I see is people saying that schools etc should being accepting of the child's decision to dress, be named, etc according to their wishes. You seem to want to refuse them that option, to insist that the school treats them as whatever they were assigned at birth.

I probably do mean sex, the terms are used in contradictory manner in law and in life more generally. I am no doubt guilty of doing so too from time to time. You need to flesh out the other argument here though, because so far it is just a claim.

Absolutely, let Jeffrey become Jenny if that's what they want.

Sure, but let's not hold them to that decision until they've matured as adults. And instead let's concentrate on loving our children for who and what they are, and not affirming the harmful fantasy their brains and bodies don't match. And let's have an environment where this can all be discussed openly and respectfully, and have proper evidence-based scientific research that bases treatment upon the findings of that science.

And let's not lie to children about them being able to change sex, because we all know this is impossible.
 
Sure, but let's not hold them to that decision until they've matured as adults. And instead let's concentrate on loving our children for who and what they are, and not affirming the harmful fantasy their brains and bodies don't match. And let's have an environment where this can all be discussed openly and respectfully, and have proper evidence-based scientific research that bases treatment upon the findings of that science.

And let's not lie to children about them being able to change sex, because we all know this is impossible.
Except the article I linked to earlier showed precisely that it was letting them live as someone of the opposite sex is better for the child. It quoted exactly the evidence-based scientific research you want.

If they then want to change their legally determined sex/gender, whichever term is used in relevant local law, then they can do so.
 
I'm surprised you're posting on this thread if you don't know what it is.

But here you go, it's something that's been observed for at least a century.

A History of Autogynephilia
I hold my hands up. I don't know what it means.

That link is to a discussion about autogynephilia that doesn't include a definition of the term. What do you think it means?
 
I'm surprised you're posting on this thread if you don't know what it is.

This thread features a wide variety of opinions and levels of knowledge about the subject matter. The phrase totally perplexed is used in its title for good reason too, and the thread has evolved in various different directions over time. I wouldn't expect you to read the entire thread in order to catch up before posting, but neither would I expect you to make presumptions about who you are talking to on this thread and there is zero requirement to have understanding of various pieces of terminology before posting here.
 
Except the article I linked to earlier showed precisely that it was letting them live as someone of the opposite sex is better for the child. It quoted exactly the evidence-based scientific research you want.

If they then want to change their legally determined sex/gender, whichever term is used in relevant local law, then they can do so.

It's a single study, and please note this quote, which shows how limited this evidence is:

It is too soon to know the long-term implications of the study for the mental health of transgender children, the authors said, as instances of depression rise dramatically during adolescence, when normal stresses are exacerbated for transgender teens.​

Also:

The study acknowledges its limits. For instance, the forms were completed by parents, who may have been inclined to show the best portrait of their child’s mental health.​

So, it's short-term, limited in scope and subject to confirmation bias. Using this as justification for child transition would be wreckless.
 
What experience? You are being deliberately vague, it seems to me. And, you accept that there are some women who will not share that experience, which isn't the absolute universal you previously claimed.
The fear of getting pregnant. Sure, there are women who can't. But they usually only find that out as adults. Every female who's sexually active has had the terror of the possibility of an unwanted pregnancy. Trans women will never have that and even before they transitioned they can never really understand it. It's not the same fear for a man.
 
This thread features a wide variety of opinions and levels of knowledge about the subject matter. The phrase totally perplexed is used in its title for good reason too, and the thread has evolved in various different directions over time. I wouldn't expect you to read the entire thread in order to catch up before posting, but neither would I expect you to make presumptions about who you are talking to on this thread and there is zero requirement to have understanding of various pieces of terminology before posting here.

Sure, but I'm making no presumption other than we are able to discuss in good faith.
 
It's a single study, and please note this quote, which shows how limited this evidence is:

It is too soon to know the long-term implications of the study for the mental health of transgender children, the authors said, as instances of depression rise dramatically during adolescence, when normal stresses are exacerbated for transgender teens.​

Also:

The study acknowledges its limits. For instance, the forms were completed by parents, who may have been inclined to show the best portrait of their child’s mental health.​

So, it's short-term, limited in scope and subject to confirmation bias. Using this as justification for child transition would be wreckless.
You haven't shown any showing the opposite. And, obviously, unless children are allowed to present as they choose, we'll never know what effect being allowed to present as they choose will have. You're preferred option would mean it was impossible to get proper, evidence-based, scientific research on the question.
 
Here's the 'transgender pregnancy group' on Facebook, it has 162 likes for something that is a great example of physiological and/or anatomical autogynephilia. So, clearly '40 people worldwide' is a massive understatement.

The Transgender Pregnancy Group
162 likes !!!!! Wow, that is massive. And every like must come from a distinct individual who is autogynephiliac, mustn't it.
 
It doesn't include a definition of the term. It just explains what you think about the undefined condition.

This explains what's behind the idea and typology, and defines the two different types of trans male ('trans woman'):

In 1985, sexologist Ray Blanchard used a larger sample size and confirmed the observation that there exists a fundamental difference between homosexual transsexuals (homosexual males romantically and sexually attracted to males) and non-homosexual transsexuals (which includes heterosexual, bisexual and asexual transsexuals):

This study tested a prediction derived from the hypothesis that asexual and bisexual transsexualism are actually subtypes of heterosexual transsexualism… (a) cluster analysis of their scores divided the subjects into four groups: heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, and asexual… there were no differences among the asexual, bisexual, and heterosexual transsexuals, and all three groups included a much higher proportion of fetishistic cases than the homosexual group… these findings support the view that male transsexuals may be divided into two basic types: heterosexual and homosexual. (Blanchard 1985)

Together, these papers teach us that transsexuals may be grouped into homosexual and non-homosexual transsexuals, and that the latter group appears to contain a number of subtypes which could be taken to correspond to an ordinal degree of fetishistic transvestisism. These observations are supported by empirical evidence; the difference is manifest in “a much higher proportion of fetishistic cases than the homosexual group” and so Blanchard confirms the identification of two types of male transsexual, who are differentiated by sexual orientation, with one group displaying a fetishistic, or paraphilic history.

Blanchard became a key figure in the history of investigation into transsexualism a few years later where he attempted to impart some meaning and rigor into the terminology surrounding the taxonomy of transsexuals, as part of systematic study into this phenomena, he coined the term “autogynephilia” as a clearer description of something that had hitherto been described as part of automonosexualism. This is what has become known as “Blanchard’s transsexual typology” or the “two-type transsexual typography” (Blanchard 1989):

Gender identity disturbance in males is always accompanied by one of two erotic anomalies. All gender dysphoric males who are not sexually oriented toward men are instead sexually oriented toward the thought or image of themselves as women. The latter erotic (or amatory) propensity is, of course, the phenomenon labeled by Hirschfeld as automonosexualism. Because of the inconsistent history of this term, however, and its nondescriptive derivation, the writer would prefer to replace it with the term autogynephilia (“love of oneself as a woman”).

It should be noted that the use of the expression “erotic anomalies” is used in a morally neutral context, to describe sexual acts that are inherently non-procreative, rather than being a pejorative expression.

Key to the concept of autogynephilia is that it’s not something that is always on the mind, nor is it something that is confined solely to cross-dressing:

It should be noted that the concept of autogynephilia does not imply that autogynephilic males are always sexually aroused by the thought of themselves as women, or by dressing in women’s clothes, or by contemplating themselves cross-dressed in the mirror – any more than a man in love always obtains an erection at the sight of his sweetheart, or pair-bonded geese copulate continuously. Autogynephilia, according to this hypothesis, may be manifested in a variety of ways, and fetishistic cross-dressing is only one of them. Those individuals labeled transvestites by contemporary clinicians would, on this view, be understood as autogynephiles whose only -or most prominent -symptom is sexual arousal in association with cross-dressing, and who have not (or not yet) become gender dysphoric. (Blanchard 1989)
 
You haven't shown any showing the opposite. And, obviously, unless children are allowed to present as they choose, we'll never know what effect being allowed to present as they choose will have. You're preferred option would mean it was impossible to get proper, evidence-based, scientific research on the question.

Please explain what you mean as 'present as they choose' without referring to cultural stereotypes. Thank you.
 
:confused: The fact that the group "women" contains representatives of all social classes does not necessarily mean there's no point to recognising women as a distinct group who have been collectively subjected to an astonishing degree of oppression for millenia. That's the whole point of feminism isn't it? Or at least of radical feminism.

If you don't think reproduction, the need for men to control it by controlling women and legislating what they are and aren't allowed to do with their bodies and the fact that reproduction and child-rearing are expected to be provided without payment by women is anything to do with this debate then, with respect, you seriously don't know anything about it.

And if you can't see why these issues are - broadly - significantly less relevant to transwomen then ditto.
I was largely, there just objecting to the phrase 'reproductive class' coming from someone who had earlier been talking about the marxist dialectic, and assuming it was meant in the sense that marx talks of a working class for and of itself. If it's meant simply as a synonym for groupings moer generally, then no problem.
 
You're completely correct that you haven't literally mentioned policing in the posts of yours that I have read. And I was making an assumption.

My assumption was that when you said:

"too often 'being trans' (whatever that means) has been a way of re-stating and reifying deeply reactionary gender roles on the basis of some mysterious essence of 'woman'. Transitioning thus becomes not a way of challenging toxic patriarchal gender roles but merely an individualistic accommodation to those roles, part of which accommodation is ritual worship at the shrines of those gender roles one of which is the hyper-feminised woman."

...that you meant that you think that this is not what should be happening. "Too often" ie there should be less of this.

This, that we don't expect of cis women.

Not my expectation. A woman (ie not a transwoman) who pushes a reactionary gender role for women should absolutely expect criticism from radicals. Do you not agree with that?

If I've made any distinction between women and transwomen on this thread in terms of this specific issue it's as clear as I can make it that, it is more understandable if some transwomen emphasise/espouse/adopt a reactionary female gender role so as to normalise their own (highly marginalised) status in society. I clearly have not criticised individuals for doing this, to me it's obviously wrong to do so. This is all on the thread.

But to criticise the gender roles being espoused - yes of course that should be permitted, encouraged in fact. It's not imo transphobic to do that, just because some of the fans of those roles happen to be transgendered. But when I have done that on these boards in the past I have absolutely been damned, multiply, for transphobia and there are still quite a few posters who seem to me to be itching to do that again.
 
James Cantor’s excellent piece on ‘trans kids’ and desistance:

Sexology Today!: Statistics faulty on how many trans- kids grow up to stay trans-?

As I'm sure you know, the studies on desistance have been widely criticised for including children who would not meet the threshold for gender dysphoria, and some of the studies Cantor references were not even looking for that but were focussed on feminine or effeminate boys. He also ignores the follow up work done on the larger study which found:

RESULTS:
We found a link between the intensity of GD in childhood and persistence of GD, as well as a higher probability of persistence among natal girls. Psychological functioning and the quality of peer relations did not predict the persistence of childhood GD. Formerly nonsignificant (age at childhood assessment) and unstudied factors (a cognitive and/or affective cross-gender identification and a social role transition) were associated with the persistence of childhood GD, and varied among natal boys and girls.

CONCLUSION:
Intensity of early GD appears to be an important predictor of persistence of GD. Clinical recommendations for the support of children with GD may need to be developed independently for natal boys and for girls, as the presentation of boys and girls with GD is different, and different factors are predictive for the persistence of GD.
 
Sorry to labour this point, but thats Silvia Rivera who suffered a violent attack at the hands of the political current Athos has defended throughout and which led to her atgtempting suicide and withdrawing from politics.

As has already been said, you've consistantly played the cunt on this thread, but with this post you've really surpassed yourself.

Do you actually think anyone with even the smallest ability for critical thinking is taken in by this bullshit, or put it another way, do you think anyone who might still be trying to work out their own position on these issues will be persuaded by your performance?
 
No it didn't. Getting 162 likes on facebook means absolutely nothing. How many came from Russian bots? It certainly is not 'evidence based scientific research'

Now you really are reaching...

Check out these places which will show you great examples of autogynephilia. The last is based on a rebranding of it as 'crossdreaming', similar to Serano's own attempted rebranding as 'female embodiment fantasies':

Free Contacts & Dating for Transgender, Transvestite & Crossdressing Friends | tvChix
Susan's Place Transgender Resources - Index
Crossdreamers
 
This explains what's behind the idea and typology, and defines the two different types of trans male ('trans woman'):

In 1985, sexologist Ray Blanchard used a larger sample size and confirmed the observation that there exists a fundamental difference between homosexual transsexuals (homosexual males romantically and sexually attracted to males) and non-homosexual transsexuals (which includes heterosexual, bisexual and asexual transsexuals):

This study tested a prediction derived from the hypothesis that asexual and bisexual transsexualism are actually subtypes of heterosexual transsexualism… (a) cluster analysis of their scores divided the subjects into four groups: heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, and asexual… there were no differences among the asexual, bisexual, and heterosexual transsexuals, and all three groups included a much higher proportion of fetishistic cases than the homosexual group… these findings support the view that male transsexuals may be divided into two basic types: heterosexual and homosexual. (Blanchard 1985)

Together, these papers teach us that transsexuals may be grouped into homosexual and non-homosexual transsexuals, and that the latter group appears to contain a number of subtypes which could be taken to correspond to an ordinal degree of fetishistic transvestisism. These observations are supported by empirical evidence; the difference is manifest in “a much higher proportion of fetishistic cases than the homosexual group” and so Blanchard confirms the identification of two types of male transsexual, who are differentiated by sexual orientation, with one group displaying a fetishistic, or paraphilic history.

Blanchard became a key figure in the history of investigation into transsexualism a few years later where he attempted to impart some meaning and rigor into the terminology surrounding the taxonomy of transsexuals, as part of systematic study into this phenomena, he coined the term “autogynephilia” as a clearer description of something that had hitherto been described as part of automonosexualism. This is what has become known as “Blanchard’s transsexual typology” or the “two-type transsexual typography” (Blanchard 1989):

Gender identity disturbance in males is always accompanied by one of two erotic anomalies. All gender dysphoric males who are not sexually oriented toward men are instead sexually oriented toward the thought or image of themselves as women. The latter erotic (or amatory) propensity is, of course, the phenomenon labeled by Hirschfeld as automonosexualism. Because of the inconsistent history of this term, however, and its nondescriptive derivation, the writer would prefer to replace it with the term autogynephilia (“love of oneself as a woman”).

It should be noted that the use of the expression “erotic anomalies” is used in a morally neutral context, to describe sexual acts that are inherently non-procreative, rather than being a pejorative expression.

Key to the concept of autogynephilia is that it’s not something that is always on the mind, nor is it something that is confined solely to cross-dressing:

It should be noted that the concept of autogynephilia does not imply that autogynephilic males are always sexually aroused by the thought of themselves as women, or by dressing in women’s clothes, or by contemplating themselves cross-dressed in the mirror – any more than a man in love always obtains an erection at the sight of his sweetheart, or pair-bonded geese copulate continuously. Autogynephilia, according to this hypothesis, may be manifested in a variety of ways, and fetishistic cross-dressing is only one of them. Those individuals labeled transvestites by contemporary clinicians would, on this view, be understood as autogynephiles whose only -or most prominent -symptom is sexual arousal in association with cross-dressing, and who have not (or not yet) become gender dysphoric. (Blanchard 1989)
Ok, I get the definition there. So back to the question of who is the arbiter of who is autogenephilic? You previously said 'it is what it is' but where is the evidence that this 'condition' isn't just one persons' pet theory (that resonates with some other people) or that it actually applies to anyone or that it is relevant to any/many/most/all trans people?
 
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