Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[belboid]

Well, ‘woman’ and ‘man’ as adult human female and male respectively, this follows: female and male are biological realities with material consequemces, not identities.

The argument is not so much the opposition to people being trans, more what it means to be trans: particularly whether a man who has lived say 60years as a man and who has benefitted rom this, can lay claim to being ‘a woman’ just because they say so (see for example Kellie Maloney or Caitlyn Jenner).

I think if the transgender community were able to accept that humans are sexually dimorphic, that ‘transgender women’ are biologically male, that women and ‘trans women’ have different lives, and that we are all subject to sex-based socialisation that begins at birth, a lot of the heat would be taken out of this debate and common ground (based on equity and material reality)could be found.

All women have different lives. The Queen and a working-class woman from the north will have very little in common. And, whilst Caitlyn Jenners life and socialisation will indeed have been very different to almost all other womens, that doesn't mean it is invalid. What about those trans people who transitioned very early in life, and have lived most of their lives as women? They will have experienced much of the same discrimination that other women face.

Also, it is not true that one can simply say 'this is a man, and this is a woman' - as our scientific understanding progresses, we realise that actually it is never as simple as that. It doesn't mean the categories are useless, or that statistics cannot be drawn out. Race is self-defined, but that doesn't mean we can't meaningfully talk about racism. The category of 'species' is something that scientists now say cannot be fully defined, but that doesn't mean it isn't still useful.

The oddest thing for me (as a cis male) is that most of the women's movement (to use the broadest term) always used to reject defining women simply by their biology, but now it is, apparently, the only criteria that matters. (Materialism, for Marx, is about people's daily lived experience, not a scientific abstraction)

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Do you google your own name every morning?

No, I was told by a comrade you were attempting to smear my character. So, as is my right, I came here to defend myself.

I note you don’t have a substantive argument.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

All women have different lives. The Queen and a working-class woman from the north will have very little in common. And, whilst Caitlyn Jenners life and socialisation will indeed have been very different to almost all other womens, that doesn't mean it is invalid. What about those trans people who transitioned very early in life, and have lived most of their lives as women? They will have experienced much of the same discrimination that other women face.

Also, it is not true that one can simply say 'this is a man, and this is a woman' - as our scientific understanding progresses, we realise that actually it is never as simple as that. It doesn't mean the categories are useless, or that statistics cannot be drawn out. Race is self-defined, but that doesn't mean we can't meaningfully talk about racism. The category of 'species' is something that scientists now say cannot be fully defined, but that doesn't mean it isn't still useful.

The oddest thing for me (as a cis male) is that most of the women's movement (to use the broadest term) always used to reject defining women simply by their biology, but now it is, apparently, the only criteria that matters. (Materialism, for Marx, is about people's daily lived experience, not a scientific abstraction)

I’m not saying anyone’s experience is invalid, just that ‘trans women’ are neither female nor women. I think you misunderstand how the women’s movement define themselves. Biology is a major factor, because our reproductive class has far reaching consequences on our lives, both biologically and socially: being a woman is not solely distilled into ones reproductive system, however everyone who has a female reproductive system is female.

De Beauvoir’s ‘The Second Sex’ is a seminal work on these questions. It’s a long but very informative read. I’d totally recommend it.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Are women not allowed to think drag queens are insulting to us?

Whether it's "allowed" or not, I find drag queens extremely offensive.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

She refers to herself as a drag queen, and explicitly rejects the label transgender, in that article! .

That's a misrepresentation of what she says. She repeatedly says 'we' and 'us' about transgender people throughout that article. At one point she says how she tires of labels. Even transgender. In other words, even the label that would probably be the best one for me, I tire of.

 

[belboid]

I’m not saying anyone’s experience is invalid, just that ‘trans women’ are neither female nor women. I think you misunderstand how the women’s movement define themselves. Biology is a major factor, because our reproductive class has far reaching consequences on our lives, both biologically and socially: being a woman is not solely distilled into ones reproductive system, however everyone who has a female reproductive system is female.

De Beauvoir’s ‘The Second Sex’ is a seminal work on these questions. It’s a long but very informative read. I’d totally recommend it.

It is over twenty years since I read The Second Sex, it is indeed seminal (ironically enough).

Of course the women's reproductive role is absolutely central to the treatment of women - although I would say the presumed reproductive role as there have always been women who cannot reproduce, and that biological fact does not affect how they are treated in society.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Of course the women's reproductive role is absolutely central to the treatment of women - although I would say the presumed reproductive role as there have always been women who cannot reproduce, and that biological fact does not affect how they are treated in society.

Hence my use of the term ‘reproductive class’.

 

[sunnysidedown]

a working-class woman from the north

lol. cue hovis music and a R4 voiceover.

 

[belboid]

Hence my use of the term ‘reproductive class’.

Not one I find very useful, considering the massive discrepancies in the material conditions of different womens lives, and the fact that some women explicitly benefit from the current set up.

 

[Mation]

To the people who don't think/believe that trans women are women: do you think that Teddy Quinlivan is male? Not a woman? If you'd heard of her before she came out as trans a couple of months ago (I hadn't), did you previously think that she was not a woman?

‘Since I transitioned when I was 16, I’ve been living as a cis female,’ Teddy told CNN. ‘I was very lucky, because I won the genetic lottery – I looked a certain way and my voice hadn’t dropped. That privilege gave me a lot of confidence to walk down the street, date, and (work) in the fashion industry, where people I would presume I was a “normal” girl.’

Model Teddy Quinlivan comes out as transgender at New York Fashion Week | Metro News

 

[belboid]

A couple of pieces I think are very good on why it is important to support the 'trans activists' on this issue (apologies if we've had them before):

'Crucial' study of transgender children links mental health with family support

Debunking “Trans Women Are Not Women” Arguments – Julia Serano – Medium

 

[belboid]

Oh, and here's another one - if biology is as central as the anti-GRA group assert, then the judge is absolutely right in this case

A judge said an anonymous sperm donor is a boy’s real parent & not his lesbian mom

 

[Miranda Yardley]

A couple of pieces I think are very good on why it is important to support the 'trans activists' on this issue (apologies if we've had them before):

'Crucial' study of transgender children links mental health with family support

Debunking “Trans Women Are Not Women” Arguments – Julia Serano – Medium

It’s possible, you know, to support transgender people without affirming any delusion that males can be female. Interestingly, many trans people who otherwise vehemently disagree with me recognise that ‘trans women’ are male, where they and I differ is the concept of a ‘male woman’. Yes, in the case of CAIS women socialised as girls from birth. No, not anyone who transitions at a later point.

And no, I don’t think we should be transitioning children to meet a socialisation criteria: there’s nothing wrong with trying to support people in becoming comfortable in their own bodies.

I think with children, it is cruel and abusive to support the idea their personalities don’t match their bodies. Apart from anything else, it’s based on (often transient)cultural stereotypes:

Common Threads And Narratives of Transgender Children And What This Means For Our Lesbian And Gay Populations

James Cantor’s excellent piece on ‘trans kids’ and desistance:

Sexology Today!: Statistics faulty on how many trans- kids grow up to stay trans-?

Here’s a thorough critique of Serano’s piece. It’s a very well-reasoned piece of writing.

Is Julia Serano right that transwomen are female? – Marcus – Medium

 

[TopCat]

That's a misrepresentation of what she says. She repeatedly says 'we' and 'us' about transgender people throughout that article. At one point she says how she tires of labels. Even transgender. In other words, even the label that would probably be the best one for me, I tire of.

Do you find it irksome? Her not liking labels?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Do you find it irksome? Her not liking labels?

Given the life she led, the prejudice she faced, and her struggle for acceptance, not at all.

 

[TopCat]

Given the life she led, the prejudice she faced, and her struggle for acceptance, not at all.

Ah so she earned the right (in your eyes) not to be labelled.
You really should have taken up social work.

 

[SpookyFrank]

And no, I don’t think we should be transitioning children to meet a socialisation criteria: there’s nothing wrong with trying to support people in becoming comfortable in their own bodies.

And if transitioning is what these people need to do in order to become comfortable in their own bodies?

You use 'transitioning' in the passive sense, ie something being done to someone. Transitioning, in its various forms, is something people decide to do for themselves.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ah so she earned the right (in your eyes) not to be labelled.
You really should have taken up social work.

You make a piss-weak equivalence between this and your objection to the term cis.

Go fuck yourself.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

All women have different lives. The Queen and a working-class woman from the north will have very little in common.

Yet what they will have in common it the material effect of having a female reproductive system, and the consequences of this. And this is something they will share with many other women across class and culture throughout the planet. They will share that experience, which is forever beyond the reach of ‘trans women’.

And, whilst Caitlyn Jenners life and socialisation will indeed have been very different to almost all other womens, that doesn't mean it is invalid. What about those trans people who transitioned very early in life, and have lived most of their lives as women? They will have experienced much of the same discrimination that other women face.

Jenner’s life and socialisation is different to every woman’s, because Jenner is male.

 

[Shechemite]

You really should have taken up social work.

Let’s keep it civil yeah?

 

[TopCat]

You make a piss-weak equivalence between this and your objection to the term cis.

Go fuck yourself.

I don't like being labelled and you dismissed this in a highly patronising holier than thou manner. But you graciously (after careful consideration) bestow a freedom from labels to this lass.
I can picture you chairing child case conferences and lecturing the parents. You would fit in.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

And if transitioning is what these people need to do in order to become comfortable in their own bodies?

You use 'transitioning' in the passive sense, ie something being done to someone. Transitioning, in its various forms, is something people decide to do for themselves.

Please see the link I posted above on desistance and also how gender nonconforming behaviour in children is being interpreted as them being transgender.

Transition is a huge decision, even for someone of 18, because the effects are deep and irreversable. Imagine having to live your full life with the consequence of every decision you made at 18...

 

[co-op]

Not one I find very useful, considering the massive discrepancies in the material conditions of different womens lives, and the fact that some women explicitly benefit from the current set up.

The fact that the group "women" contains representatives of all social classes does not necessarily mean there's no point to recognising women as a distinct group who have been collectively subjected to an astonishing degree of oppression for millenia. That's the whole point of feminism isn't it? Or at least of radical feminism.

If you don't think reproduction, the need for men to control it by controlling women and legislating what they are and aren't allowed to do with their bodies and the fact that reproduction and child-rearing are expected to be provided without payment by women is anything to do with this debate then, with respect, you seriously don't know anything about it.

And if you can't see why these issues are - broadly - significantly less relevant to transwomen then ditto.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Transition is a huge decision, even for someone of 18, because the effects are deep and irreversable. Imagine having to live your full life with the consequence of every decision you made at 18...

Everyone has to live with consequences of their decisions. You can join the army and get your legs blown off at 18 if you want to.

 

[Pickman's model]

Everyone has to live with consequences of their decisions. You can join the army and get your legs blown off at 18 if you want to.

or at 16 with your parents' permission

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Everyone has to live with consequences of their decisions. You can join the army and get your legs blown off at 18 if you want to.

That’s a different matter completely. And no, I really wouldn’t recommend anyone join the army.

He point I’m making is young boys and girls having their reproductive systems destroyed based on a condition without an agreed etiology appears rather extreme. We have a culture that seems to want to support people to become a facsimile of the opposite sex, rather than accept themselves and their sexuality as it is.

How can this be said to be progressive? How can we really be supporting these children, buying into the idea their bodies do not match their personalities? To me, this seems not just devoid of compassion, but incredibly cruel.

 

[SpookyFrank]

or at 16 with your parents' permission

Rule fucking Brittania.

 

[Pickman's model]

That’s a different matter completely. And no, I really wouldn’t recommend anyone join the army.

He point I’m making is young boys and girls having their reproductive systems destroyed based on a condition without an agreed etiology appears rather extreme. We have a culture that seems to want to support people to become a facsimile of the opposite sex, rather than accept themselves and their sexuality as it is.

How can this be said to be progressive? How can we really be supporting these children, buying into the idea their bodies do not match their personalities? To me, this seems not just devoid of compassion, but incredibly cruel.

how can we say these people should adhere to our beliefs?

 

[Pickman's model]

Rule fucking Brittania.

i wanted to but they said the position was taken

 

[co-op]

The second sentence does not follow from the first. Someone's 'inner sense' takes place within an entire socio-economic structure that creates gender. Haven't followed this whole thread but there were claims above that being trans is an individualistic attempt to escape socially created notions of gender. But the converse argument is that those who oppose people being trans are demanding that individuals take on the burden of opposing vast social forces. It could be compared to telling people not to buy Starbucks and iphones if they are anti-capitalist. Would people on this thread guilt-trip an anti-capitalist about consuming within a capitalist framework? Then why guilt-trip a trans person about living the gender they feel themselves to be within a social framework they also don't control?

I know this thread is a beast but this has been covered quite closely and I don't think anyone has said that transpeople have any special obligation to be or do anything in relation to the patriarchy. In fact that's been specifically rejected where it's been raised.

Re the bit I've bolded; I don't see anyone having made that argument but it's possible that you've read that out of things I've posted it, it's not always easy to get clarity into posts. My view is not that 'being trans is an individualistic attempt to escape socially created notions of gender' - it's that too often 'being trans' (whatever that means) has been a way of re-stating and reifying deeply reactionary gender roles on the basis of some mysterious essence of 'woman'. Transitioning thus becomes not a way of challenging toxic patriarchal gender roles but merely an individualistic accommodation to those roles, part of which accommodation is ritual worship at the shrines of those gender roles one of which is the hyper-feminised woman.

So there's a pov there which it should imo be legitimate to critique but generally doing so is automatically assigned to transphobia.

I get that transwomen are damned if they do, damned if they don't here; the practical demands of the medical profession mean that transwomen have to 'live like' a woman for X years etc so there's a strong practical push to act stereotypically female. Patriarchal gender compliance is actually a part of the diagnosis. And if they go hyper-feminine they can be shot at for that, if they don't they are 'just a man in a dress' and shot at for that etc etc.