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Transgender hate crimes recorded by police go up 81%

How you describe people is important if you want to be conciliatory. People who seek to separate trans women’s oppression from the oppression of women like to call themselves Gender Critical. If it helps us actually have some discourse then let’s go with that.

My point wasn't that we shouldn't use conciliatory language, but that we shouldn't let those who aren't GC use that term. Like conservative Christians. They're anything but critical of gender; they embrace gender stereotypes. The danger being you drive those new to the debate and critical of gender into thinking these should be allies.
 
My point wasn't that we shouldn't use conciliatory language, but that we shouldn't let those who aren't GC use that term. Like conservative Christians. They're anything but critical of gender; they embrace gender stereotypes. The danger being you drive those new to the debate and critical of gender into thinking these should be allies.
It’s the most concessionary term they are willing to use.
 
This whole episode is so odd it’s unnerving. I was angry yesterday (apology about the language), now I think it’s best left. If someone has such an extreme view of you that they think of you as a bigot and latch on like a dog with lock jaw your never gonna be able to have any kind of conversation. It’s just weird it’s entirely focused on me and for that reason I’m out.

It doesn’t really matter what I say here but I don’t think people calling me a bigot live in the real world. Not my world anyway.
 
Ok. I still think it's not ideal. It's also unfair to trans people as it implies they're not critical of gender.
I know lots of trans people who are critical of gender and see the ideology for the regressive sexist homophobic reality that it is.

What I never see is a definition of gender that isn't regressive, sexist, homophobic.
 
Surely anyone in their right mind is critical of gender (including most trans people)?

You must be aware of what 'gender critical' actually means, at least to those who self-apply it. It's neutral-sounding because it's designed to be, to cover up a distinctly non-neutral position.
 
I know lots of trans people who are critical of gender and see the ideology for the regressive sexist homophobic reality that it is.

What I never see is a definition of gender that isn't regressive, sexist, homophobic.

Which ideology is that?
 
Every bigot thinks their rights are being undermined by those they oppose. Religious bigots think there rights to run Christian businesses are undermined by LGBT people, racists think their rights are undermined by immigrants, MRAs even have it in the name. I'm not at all saying that everyone concerned about trans rights is a bigot, but the idea this conflict is a unique clash of rights I don't think is really true.

Poppycock to conflate the issues

Example one - Opppressor class
Example two - Oppressor class
Example three - Oppressor class

Women critical of gender - Oppressed class
 
I'm saying you, like many posters on here, seem to have bilndspot, or are prepared to tolerate, things which would be challenged were it targetted at other minorities. That there are people still pushing a trans hostile or sceptical line on this thread about rising violence and criminal behaviour towards trans people is testament to that.

I know what you are saying, you've said it before, you keep saying it and using racism as a comparison because you know I am a Black woman who speaks out and about racism on these boards. Of course I do, there are very fucking few of us around here, my input stands out because of that! I don't know why you keep repeating this point in this way although you've switched to using minorities now. I understood the first time you made it on another thread and as you know I am making a much larger point to you about how you interact with me. I don't think you'd like it if every time I wanted to give you an example I used the fact you are trans as the axis...I think we can leave that there as I have made my point and I don't think I need to keep repeating this to you.

I also don't think I have a blind spot, I obviously don't see it as clear cut as you though. I have been open about not having it all firm and nailed down.... that's not blindness imo. I am open to learning and have never been attacking or abusive towards trans people.

Every bigot thinks their rights are being undermined by those they oppose. Religious bigots think there rights to run Christian businesses are undermined by LGBT people, racists think their rights are undermined by immigrants, MRAs even have it in the name. I'm not at all saying that everyone concerned about trans rights is a bigot, but the idea this conflict is a unique clash of rights I don't think is really true.

Where did I use the term 'unique'? That's right I didn't. It honestly feels a bit of a dismissive trick of you to make out like I did so you can undermine and oversimplify my point.

What I said was that it has complexities because of the intersection of 'trans' and 'feminist' issues. The point I was making was I think it's obvious why lots of us are having to work through this stuff and as such work out our position on things and/or have positions that you are concerned about. A cursury look at the man whispering thread or the world designed for men thread for further considerations as to why that might be is a good idea.

Does that mean I don't want to share toilets or changing rooms. No. I don't worry at those things.
Does it mean I have a problem saying 'trans women are women'? No. I am okay saying that.
Does that mean I wish harm or distress on trans people? No, I support everyone's right to exist and be safe.
Does that mean I think a transwoman's past lived experience is the same as mine as a natal female, no I don't believe it can be, especially for those that transition as adults. Of course there is overlap, once you are identifying as, living as a woman and being treated as one obviously and also like there is if we examine the experiences of people for other reasons too.
Do I think recognising that difference makes me a transphobe? No, I don't.
 
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OK, sorry I wasnt catching your drift.

It was supposed to be a big all-encompassing "they" covering many years and not something unique to u75.

There are different sorts of concerns about trans issues, ranging from the reasonable to the transphobic, and some awkward blends of both. It seems to be especially bad in the UK. Some very specific schools of radical feminism have given an ideological, campaigning and rhetorical edge to this stuff. Some otherwise opposing interests have aligned, such as some of those particular feminist schools and evangelical religious groups and right wing media, and people who are in no way genuine friends of feminism.

Some are sincere in their beliefs, concerns and priorities, others have figured out that they can use the energy from these issues to further their broader cause. Fears often centre around proposed legislative changes, and how this could affect things such as safe spaces for women. Beyond the very real substance of this issue, others use it as a chance to promote the false narrative that this is and must be an issue of conflicting rights, where one must trump the other, and the others concerns must be marginalised. Attempts to explore the raft of possibilities where trans rights are advanced but where safeguards are very much in place to make sure womens rights and safety are not eroded at all, and are advanced too, are all too infrequent. And people start to assume bad faith at that point, because those who truly care about trans rights but are also quite rightly focussed on womens rights and safe spaces and preventing male violence, should be able to persue the latter without doing such a thoroughly unconvincing job of pretending to actually give a shit about trans rights.

I've seen that last bit play out numerous times. On the personal level, we will get some people saying how bad they feel that a particular trans member of u75 feels so awful by some of the things that are said. They will express sympathy and empathy for that person, but this never actually extends as far as having a decent discussion about how to protect trans rights at times like these. We know that over the last few years it was proposed legislative changes that fuelled a lot of the TERF arguments here and elsewhere. But after a while I picked up on the idea that these people did not just have a problem with the proposed legislation, some of the specific things they were saying were also at odds with the existing rights of trans people in this country. I asked on numerous occasions for them to clarify their support for a raft of existing and possible trans rights, and on almost every occasion they remained silent. Of course this maybe because they did not want to engage with an arsehole such as myself. But it still stands out to me as something distinct from many other more mainstream forms of bigotry, where people who want to avoid being bigots normally have no hesitation in compensating for any particular problem they have with some aspect, by providing many warm reassurances on all the other fronts where, even in their minds, there should not be a conflict of rights.

I agree with so much of this. Although I would ask you and others to please stop using the word TERF which is now known to be used as a slur in the same way bitch or cunt is used.

I would be very interested in learning more about the existing and possible trans rights you wish to discuss. Knowing both sides is the best way to start to find compromise.

Unfortunately in this issue rights are a pie.

This is not the same as gay rights which would have no affect on other members of society.

Trans rights appear to be wants. Wants for inclusion in the group that is the most oppressed by society.

As said I and I am sure many others on these boards who are GC would welcome the opportunity to discuss the existing and possible trans rights you wish to discuss.

If you would like to start a thread please let me know when you have.

Thanks
 
Does that mean I don't want to share toilets or changing rooms. No. I don't worry at those things.
Does it mean I have a problem saying 'trans women are women'? No. I am okay saying that.
Does that mean I wish harm or distress on trans people? No, I support everyone's right to exist and be safe.
Does that mean I think a transwoman's past lived experience is the same as mine as a natal female, no I don't believe it can be, especially for those that transition as adults. Of course there is overlap, like there is if we examine the experiences of people for other reasons too. Do I think recognising that difference makes me a transphobe? No, I don't.

Excellent post :)

And to add to it.

Rutita might not mind about changing rooms but other women have the right to raise their concerns
I will say trans women are women but we still have to have a word that describes the oppressed class
No one wants trans people to feel unsafe and no one debates their right to exist (except possibly Posie Parker and Julia Long!). But we do ask for a definition of gender that explains how a man feels they are a woman. What is it that puts us all in a the same grouping?
We should be honest and say none of our lived experiences are exactly the same but those in the oppressed class of women will have something in common that is not shared by natal men.
We should also be able to have a very honest conversation about what is happening to and with trans children. The silence on this topic is frightening.

We are not transphobes
 
This is not the same as gay rights which would have no affect on other members of society.

This has not always been the view of those we might charitably call 'sexuality critical' or more accurately call homophobes.

Do you think the right to freedom from violence is a 'want' as you call it? Do you want to go about your day unmolested by those who object to something intrinsic to who you are, or is that something you should be able to expect?
 
This has not always been the view of those we might charitably call 'sexuality critical' or more accurately call homophobes.

Do you think the right to freedom from violence is a 'want' as you call it? Do you want to go about your day unmolested by those who object to something intrinsic to who you are, or is that something you should be able to expect?

It would be something I feel I should be able to expect and now I am middle aged and rather plump it doesn't happen anymore. Ask teenage girls and young women how they feel about it and if it is a "want" rather than expected.

We can reduce the opposition of gay rights to disgust. People were disgusted at the thought of men loving and having sex with other men (it was primarily about men as lesbians were ignored). When a light is shone on this it becomes apparent quite quickly that it is nobodies goddamn business what people get up to in their personal lives. And the light shone bright and we all realised there is nothing to be lost for letting people love who they want to love.

Trans rights are not the same.
 
I agree with so much of this. Although I would ask you and others to please stop using the word TERF which is now known to be used as a slur in the same way bitch or cunt is used.

I would be very interested in learning more about the existing and possible trans rights you wish to discuss. Knowing both sides is the best way to start to find compromise.

Unfortunately in this issue rights are a pie.

This is not the same as gay rights which would have no affect on other members of society.

Trans rights appear to be wants. Wants for inclusion in the group that is the most oppressed by society.

As said I and I am sure many others on these boards who are GC would welcome the opportunity to discuss the existing and possible trans rights you wish to discuss.

If you would like to start a thread please let me know when you have.

Thanks

I don't buy the idea of rights as a zero sum game. I can see there are points at which they appear to clash, but honestly believe that solutions can be found that mean everyone benefits.

For instance, if trans and cis women work together in recognition that they both both suffer violence at the hands of men, maybe there could be sufficient shelters for everyone - for trans people to have somewhere safe, and those women who'd be scared to use a shelter where any penis was present would also have dedicated facilities.

I know thay might sound hopelessly idealistic in these times if austerity, but perhaps that should focus our minds on recognising the architects of that as the real enemy, and see the mutual benefits of some compromises on both sides whilst it's tackled.

For instance not asking women to give up the hard-won protection of single sex spaces, and a recognition that the vast majority of trans women ate genuine and worthy of respect, love and solidarity.
 
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I am thankful that our trans sisters and brothers are not murdered at the same rate as the rest of the population.

I think trans women are lucky their main objectors to gaining the same rights as women are women. If the penis people were dealing with this those figures would be a lot higher.

But if the penis people were dealing with this it would have died a death years ago

 
I don't buy the idea of rights as a zero sum game. I can see there are points at which they appear to clash, but honestly believe that solutions can be found that mean everyone benefits.

For instance, if trans and cis women work together in recognition that they both both suffer violence at the hands of men, maybe there could be sufficient shelters for everyone - for trans people to have somewhere safe, and those women who'd be scared to use a shelter where any penis was present would also have dedicated facilities.

I know thay might sound hopelessly idealistic in these times if austerity, but perhaps that should focus our minds on recognising the architects of that as the real enemy, and see the mutual benefits of some compromises on both sides whilst it's tackled.
Most Gender Critical people I know make this offer numerous times, but it is just not good enough.

In places where Self ID is now enshrined in law, this happens

Discontinuation of grant to Vancouver Rape Relief shows trans activism is an attack on women
 
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