Transgender hate crimes recorded by police go up 81%

[smokedout]

So...you don't think I am a transphobe but you are saying that I 'generally seem to take the opposite position on trans issues'?

There is certainly a lot I don't have firm in my head and I am learning. I don't take the opposite position though IMO and you saying I do reads like a back handed way of calling me a transprobe even though you are also posting that you don't think I am.

I'm saying you, like many posters on here, seem to have bilndspot, or are prepared to tolerate, things which would be challenged were it targetted at other minorities. That there are people still pushing a trans hostile or sceptical line on this thread about rising violence and criminal behaviour towards trans people is testament to that.

I also want to remind you that one of the complexities here is that 'trans' issues are intersecting with 'feminist' issues so your 'opposite position' comment is really 'binary' in a way that the discussion isn't.

Every bigot thinks their rights are being undermined by those they oppose. Religious bigots think there rights to run Christian businesses are undermined by LGBT people, racists think their rights are undermined by immigrants, MRAs even have it in the name. I'm not at all saying that everyone concerned about trans rights is a bigot, but the idea this conflict is a unique clash of rights I don't think is really true.

 

[JimW]

You're going to get nowhere if your advocacy imagines someone like Edie is a bigot and your enemy.

Wow.
Hate crime committed to trans people has rocketed and how is it being discussed here?

Would you even take a look at yourselves.

We'd have been more likely to have had a productive discussion if there hadn't been a personal attack on someone who's clearly not a bigot.

 

[Athos]

Every bigot thinks their rights are being undermined by those they oppose. Religious bigots think there rights to run Christian businesses are undermined by LGBT people, racists think their rights are undermined by immigrants, MRAs even have it in the name. I'm not at all saying that everyone concerned about trans rights is a bigot, but the idea this conflict is a unique clash of rights I don't think is really true.

This is true. But, what's unique about this case is that the alleged clash of rights is between the rights of two oppressed groups.

 

[elbows]

Can you give a few examples from each of those three categories, please? (That's a genuine question, btw, not taking the piss.)

I dont think I've got it in me right now. My views are well known, I'm sure I can find examples at either end that most people would agree with, but ultimately we will just be arguing about where exactly I personally choose to draw certain lines. I will still do it anyway when I find the right words, if its still wanted. I dont think it will be this evening though, my head hurts quite literally.

I'd much rather focus on the angle of reassurances and how people end up feeling, how little difference some reassurances make, how little care to actually give reassurance there have been at times. It scares me how little people were prepared to speak up for existing rights, to declare their support of them, or to offer constructive alternatives that still result in rights gains for all. Everything becomes about the nasty exclusion bits. Not about how few exclusions need to be made to ensure rights for all, but about how many more are justified, or can be used to justify foul rhetoric and much broader forms of exclusion.

 

[Athos]

Wow.
Hate crime committed to trans people has rocketed and how is it being discussed here?

Would you even take a look at yourselves.

Given the argument that such events are facilitated by purported 'low-level' transphobia, it makes sense to look at that on this thread (and overlooking the fact that it's a rise in reported crimes, rather than crimes committed).

 

[elbows]

You're going to get nowhere if your advocacy imagines someone like Edie is a bigot and your enemy.

We'd have been more likely to have had a productive discussion if there hadn't been a personal attack on someone who's clearly not a bigot.

Do you think the words Edie has said on trans threads would be more or less likely to make trans people feel welcome here?

Have you even read all her words on the subject? Its a mixed bag, but it certainly isnt welcoming or inclusive, even if it falls well short of peoples definitions of transphobia or bigotry.

 

[Clair De Lune]

Surely anyone in their right mind is critical of gender (including most trans people)?

Absolutely. I did not coin the phrase as you clearly know.

 

[JimW]

Do you think the words Edie has said on trans threads would be more or less likely to make trans people feel welcome here?

Have you even read all her words on the subject? Its a mixed bag, but it certainly isnt welcoming or inclusive, even if it falls well short of peoples definitions of transphobia or bigotry.

I've read probably most of them, can't claim it's been all. To my mind she's like me, someone willing to listen and engage and with no ill-will - if that's a bigot then it's me too, these are issues outside my direct experience but touching on how I raise my kids etc. and I want to do the right thing by everyone but some things are not so obvious and maybe I'll have some wrongheaded take.

 

[Athos]

... I'm sure I can find examples at either end that most people would agree with, but ultimately we will just be arguing about where exactly I personally choose to draw certain lines. I will still do it anyway when I find the right words, if its still wanted. I dont think it will be this evening though, my head hurts quite literally.

Please do, when you feel able. Because I feel this nuance to which you refer belies the rather binary approach you seem to take a lot of the time e.g. people are transphobes or not. I wonder whether there's people with opinions in the middle ground where it might be more helpful to say that you passionately disagree, without labelling them a bigot. And I'd have thought Edie would've been one.

 

[nyxx]

Get over your petty squabbles then and try have an actual think about this development in statistics.

What’s more important, someone might have been called a bigot when they don’t think they are one, vs people being abused and violently assaulted based on their gender presentation.

Could you even pretend to give a fuck about it?

 

[Athos]

Absolutely. I did not coin the phrase as you clearly know.

I think it's a bit dangerous to elide criticism of gender with the views of some of those who'd seek to hide behind that label. We're didn't ought to bolster Christian fundamentalists appropriation of it, for example.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Do you think the words Edie has said on trans threads would be more or less likely to make trans people feel welcome here?

Have you even read all her words on the subject? Its a mixed bag, but it certainly isnt welcoming or inclusive, even if it falls well short of peoples definitions of transphobia or bigotry.

That's going to depend on the trans person. Someone like edie trying to muddle their way through issues that bring up contradictions for them, and it's not just her, I think a lot of us are in that position, may make being here not feel completely comfortable all of the time, but even that really depends on the trans person. From reading her journey through this, it has come across as similar to mine in many respects - at times finding yourself agreeing with points from both 'sides', but also rejecting quite firmly some points from both 'sides' as well.

That's the problem with you flinging the b word around like this. Once we've dug into things, we've found a much more complicated picture where people feel there is a clash of conflicting interests at certain points. The fault for that is very much not one-sided, imo. Once you've called someone a bigot, you've closed yourself off from even the possibility that you might try or even want to try to understand their position. That's what that word is for - to position another as ignorant in a way that you never would be.

 

[nyxx]

We'd have been more likely to have had a productive discussion if there hadn't been a personal attack on someone who's clearly not a bigot.

Are you not capable of rising above that, do you really blame the capacity to have a productive discussion on this stupid pique?

 

[Athos]

Get over your petty squabbles then and try have an actual think about this development in statistics.

What’s more important, someone might have been called a bigot when they don’t think they are one, vs people being abused and violently assaulted based on their gender presentation.

Could you even pretend to give a fuck about it?

Probably what's most important is how to stop it. A big part of that is understanding what causes it. People are claiming it's 'low-level' transphiobia of a type allegedly seen on these boards. Seems pretty important to unpack that.

 

[elbows]

Please do, when you feel able. Because I feel this nuance to which you refer belies the rather binary approach you seem to take a lot of the time e.g. people are transphobes or not. I wonder whether there's people with opinions in the middle ground where it might be more helpful to say that you passionately disagree, without labelling them a bigot. And I'd have thought Edie would've been one.

I thought Edie would have been one too, which is why I cried at some point last year. I dont cry that easily, so something particularly distressing must have been said about trans people or her attitude towards the issues.

Anyone who has been bored to tears by my posts over the years knows that I often waffle in a world of grey, despite the presence of various black and white rocks in my rhetoric. I realise that probably the view that people I wanted to reach had of me was already too negative for me to be the difference maker, especially in view of my occasional outbursts. But that did not stop me repeatedly searching for common ground and trying to initiate discussions with wiggle room. Like I said, ended up the very wrong person for that job, would love someone else to manage it.

What would meaningful olive branches look like? I've been crying out for ones where people strongly affirm all the trans rights that they are happy to support. And not under duress from me (not that it ever happens in that circumstance anyway)

 

[Clair De Lune]

I think it's a bit dangerous to elide criticism of gender with the views of some of those who'd seek to hide behind that label. We're didn't ought to bolster Christian fundamentalists appropriation of it, for example.

Ok so we're not allowed to say terf cos it's a slur. We are definitely not allowed to call anyone here a transphobe or bigot so I tried to use a term that is being used 'gc feminist' I didn't coin it and tbh I think it's a poor descriptor because like you mentioned trans people and many feminists (myself included) would like to smash the binary and be done with gender roles.

 

[JimW]

Are you not capable of rising above that, do you really blame the capacity to have a productive discussion on this stupid pique?

I am, and am happy to have that discussion. But I also think if the first response to this terrible turn is to attack the sympathetic and engaged then maybe you're getting further away from a better outcome. I take it the feeling is that "questions" amount to enabling an environment of hostility but I can't see how the sort of fundamental challenges trans raises isn't going to provoke questions in the wider public, and while it may be frustrating to have to repeat yourself while some serious shit is going down it doesn't make those raising them the enemy.

 

[nyxx]

I think it's a bit dangerous to elide criticism of gender with the views of some of those who'd seek to hide behind that label. We're didn't ought to bolster Christian fundamentalists appropriation of it, for example.

I think that’s a conversation you need to take up with self described “gender critical” feminists. The language is evolving and that term is successfully being claimed by trans exclusionary feminists. I don’t really see the point in asking posters here to account for it. Maybe head on over to mumsnet and pose that question there.

 

[Clair De Lune]

I think that’s a conversation you need to take up with self described “gender critical” feminists. The language is evolving and that term is successfully being claimed by trans exclusionary feminists. I don’t really see the point in asking posters here to account for it. Maybe head on over to mumsnet and pose that question there.

Thanks.

 

[nyxx]

My god it’s like toddlers wailing “he started it mum”

 

[Athos]

Ok so we're not allowed to say terf cos it's a slur. We are definitely not allowed to call anyone here a transphobe or bigot so I tried to use a term that is being used 'gc feminist' I didn't coin it and tbh I think it's a poor descriptor because like you mentioned trans people and many feminists (myself included) would like to smash the binary and be done with gender roles.

I think all those terms have correct usages (and I've used them all). But, like you say, it's a poor descriptor when used too widely. Which I think you were doing in your post I initially quoted, which seemed to imply a continuum between criticism of gender and transphobia. I know we agree that its possible to be miles from transphobia and still critical of gender (like any number of trans-inclusive feminists).

 

[elbows]

I am trying to shut up again (obviously I dont find it that easy but I usually get there eventually), but perhaps someone could ask Edie more about why her first post on this thread started with the sentiment that 'I guess I’m classed as a transphobe', and this was long before I labelled her as such on this thread in particular.

The answer might come back that it was somewhere between 50 and 100% down to things I said to her in other threads in the past. Well the bit related to me is obvious already, I am interested in where the rest of that impression comes from.

I say that partly because I have not gone into any of the other feminist threads and caused any trouble, and until around a month+ ago I spent somewhere between 9 and 10 months not reading or posting in the trans thread at all. So there has been plenty of time for these matters to evolve in manners that were not being all mucked up by any shittyness in my approach.

 

[Athos]

I think that’s a conversation you need to take up with self described “gender critical” feminists. The language is evolving and that term is successfully being claimed by trans exclusionary feminists. I don’t really see the point in asking posters here to account for it. Maybe head on over to mumsnet and pose that question there.

Some trans exclusionary feminists are gender critical. Many teams exclusionary people aren't e.g. conservative Christians. If I came across the latter trying to hide behind that label I would challenge them.

 

[Poot]

elbows Your obsession with Edie is getting a bit weird tbh.

 

[elbows]

Its not an obsession by any stretch, come on. I only started going on about it again because people were, probably quite rightly, making fresh comment about my earlier treatment of Edie in this thread.

I'm willing to take most of the blame but come on, coming into this thread in particular and saying 'I guess I'm classed as a transphobe' rather opens up the discussion to going in certain directions in regards that person, doesnt it?

 

[elbows]

I mean it is a provocative statement. I made many of my own, I am sorry, I will be quiet now.

 

[Athos]

Edit - was a joke, but a bit below the belt.

 

[elbows]

Oh one last thing, if anyone is concerned, I do solemnly and sincerely swear that no member of u75 will have to suffer my accusations or questions on this matter again. I am done, I am a spent force, there is no threat that I will lurk and jump on anything anyone says at some future moment. If I stay on u75 in some capacity, it will be various corners of u75 where I should not antagonise anyone. Thanks and good luck, and please wont someone find a way forwards!

edit - and yes I left this issue before, so there may be some skepticism about my ability to stay away this time. But I did manage a solid 9 or 10 month chunk last time, with zero blips. And I would not promise to leave people alone on a very permanent basis unless I meant it, and I am leaving with a somewhat different mindset compared to last time. And now thats quite enough of the me me, I, I, blah, blah.

 

[spanglechick]

I think it's a bit dangerous to elide criticism of gender with the views of some of those who'd seek to hide behind that label. We're didn't ought to bolster Christian fundamentalists appropriation of it, for example.

How you describe people is important if you want to be conciliatory. People who seek to separate trans women’s oppression from the oppression of women like to call themselves Gender Critical. If it helps us actually have some discourse then let’s go with that.

 

[8ball]

How you describe people is important if you want to be conciliatory. People who seek to separate trans women’s oppression from the oppression of women like to call themselves Gender Critical. If it helps us actually have some discourse then let’s go with that.

Bit of a shame that a huge number of people who would say they are exactly that (once the capital letters are removed) lose probably the most precise way of describing their stance.

But it’s better than losing more friends, so it’s a vote in favour from
me.