fuck off elbows you passive aggressive, nasty little prick. I wouldn't deign to post on the 'terf' thread...or even visit but yep, I am not 100% swallowing the reams of shite claiming to be statistical fact...nor am I subscribing to a monolithic idea of what constitutes 'trans;'...which also means there is no over-arching ideology, applicable to all cases, in all circumstances, and all outlying considerations...but apparently, there is a clear line which must be walked at ALL times...or else you are simply condemned by the urban police. How bloody furious are Brexit leavers, being associated with right wing scum and paraded as racists? Think there are not similar levels of complexity regarding the multifarious issues arising from the discontents of gender? And do you really believe in this simple 'if you are not with us you are against us? Of course, if we want to play this game, then here is my position. I demand my right to be protected from the be-penissed, to maintain spaces where penis owners are unwelcome, to take appropriate action when confronted with a penis in any public place and to maintain reservations about the integrity of penis owners...since it was unwanted,disgusting penises (penii?) which I was forced to hold,, suck and be penetrated by from 6 years old. Consequently, I am suspicious that every single penis owner is basically a bastard...and have had to put aside my fears every single day for the past 50odd years. So yeah, I will be quite clear, I will fight against transwomen having a place in a women's refuge or muscling in on women's private spaces...and if a transwoman cannot see why, if their fears and anxieties are deemed more valid or worthy than mine, and all other women who have been hurt at the hands of the male-socialised, and the male penis owners,they can get to fuck.
Transgender hate crimes recorded by police go up 81%
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No, but I do hold those who publicly espouse racist views as having some responsibility for racism in society, don't you?
Here we go, it's all made up, this seems to be the standard GC response to these figures.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Its not a game I'm playing campanula.
People I care about were driven from u75, and the response was dismal. I know its a complex subject, and I respect a good many of the foundations upon which yours views are constructed, but certainly not the final result built on top of them. Trans-exclusionary horseshit that seeks to exclude trans people not just from the safe spaces of which you mention, but from the public sphere in general.
People I care about were driven from u75, and the response was dismal. I know its a complex subject, and I respect a good many of the foundations upon which yours views are constructed, but certainly not the final result built on top of them. Trans-exclusionary horseshit that seeks to exclude trans people not just from the safe spaces of which you mention, but from the public sphere in general.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Playing top trumps on this isn't a good look. The posts that have followed this one illustrate why.
Athos
Well-Known Member
It's a massive assumption that the women who've left feel it's because their political views have diverged from those if the community. Perhaps they feel they've been bullied off (primarily by those socialised as men).
Treacle Toes
Time
campanula go easy, take care of yourself first.
elbows if you think I’m being told by a fucking MAN whether me and other women “deserve” protected space for FEMALES you have to be fucking joking. You don’t know shit my friend. Within the last month I’ve had to deal with violence off a man towards both me and my kid. Within the last MONTH you self entitled white knighting fucking prick.
So don’t you dare tell me what I should or shouldn’t have to fucking accept from men. And don’t ever think you can lecture me and call me a bigot for wanting the protections that my sisters have fort for and demanded over years.
I’m out.
elbows if you think I’m being told by a fucking MAN whether me and other women “deserve” protected space for FEMALES you have to be fucking joking. You don’t know shit my friend. Within the last month I’ve had to deal with violence off a man towards both me and my kid. Within the last MONTH you self entitled white knighting fucking prick.
So don’t you dare tell me what I should or shouldn’t have to fucking accept from men. And don’t ever think you can lecture me and call me a bigot for wanting the protections that my sisters have fort for and demanded over years.
I’m out.
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
Well, the thread has turned out as expected, well done elbows for being such a knob-head.
elbows
Well-Known Member
If anyone actually cares what I think about safe spaces for women, I made a number of posts within recent weeks on the other thread where I made it very clear that I was glad that womens concerns about safe spaces were listened to by the various government consultations. I am not pleased that those consultations also revealed grotesque levels of transphobia and that both the uk and scottish governments are now on the back-foot about making necessary reforms to laws that give trans people improved rights. I have continually paid attention to a range of concerns, many of which come from women, and I have tried to find a balance. My views do not set me against women in any way, except that the gender critical feminists of the TERF variety are extremists who will always condemn my stance and seek to paint me as a danger to women and all manner of other stuff that could not be further from the truth.
The white knight stuff is BS. Otherwise every fight against bigotry, every struggle for minority groups rights could just be written off as whinging, virtue signalling, white knight stupudity etc.
The white knight stuff is BS. Otherwise every fight against bigotry, every struggle for minority groups rights could just be written off as whinging, virtue signalling, white knight stupudity etc.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Knob-head I may be, but I am not the source of the problem. Assuming the problem for people is actually transphobia, as opposed to having to put up with reading the shit of those who are hopping mad about the transphobia and the continued tolerance of it on u75.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I don't see anyone here defend what they consider to be transphiobia. So, have you considered the possibilities: first, that your definition of transphobia is different from others'; and, secondly, that they're right?
Of course there are different shades of opinion. I would not consider you a transphobe for example, although given how I've seen you jump down people's throats, often rightly, when other minorities are attacked its strange that you generally seem to tale the opposite position on trans issues.
But I'm sorry, that poster has said some viciously transphobic things on the other thread to the point of making sexually demeaning comments to a trans poster. There has been open and quite nasty transphobia on this site at times, and it has all too often been defended or overlooked by the moderates.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I suppose the resounding thought that has gone round my head for years is something along the lines of:
They've whipping up fears about a very small minority group. Why are the alarms not going off?
The answers are complex, they are there to see on this and other threads.
And now yes I will shut my ugly gob.
They've whipping up fears about a very small minority group. Why are the alarms not going off?
The answers are complex, they are there to see on this and other threads.
And now yes I will shut my ugly gob.
Treacle Toes
Time
You know, I've noticed that you constantly refer to me not being White in the way/how you talk/engage with me. You reach for the racism/minority comparason as if you don't think I can understand your point without that comparason.
You don't do it to White posters here that I have noticed. You talk to them in a way that their skin colour doesn't figure. I find that condescending and weird quite frankly. I am telling you this because I want you to be aware that I have noticed it.
So...you don't think I am a transphobe but you are saying that I 'generally seem to take the opposite position on trans issues'?
There is certainly a lot I don't have firm in my head and I am learning. I don't take the opposite position though IMO and you saying I do reads like a back handed way of calling me a transprobe even though you are also posting that you don't think I am.
I also want to remind you that one of the complexities here is that 'trans' issues are intersecting with 'feminist' issues so your 'opposite position' comment is really 'binary' in a way that the discussion isn't.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
In 3 words or fewer, who is "they"?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
elbows
Well-Known Member
Answered many times.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
My mistake, you shutting up was the better tack to take after all.
Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
There's a very fine line between gender critical and transphobe. For me the line is crossed when the person seems to take pleasure in it, when they say things they know will hurt and when they peddle misinformation or fear monger.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Surely anyone in their right mind is critical of gender (including most trans people)?
elbows
Well-Known Member
Well, what did you expect? You wanted me to keep it unreasonably short, and I have answered that question in oh so many posts at various points in time, including many posts that have seen me labelled wanker and worse. If my various takes on that matter are not already clear, I doubt there are any fresh ways I can find of putting it that will resonate. And there are other people who have answered the same and similar questions many times in the past too, and will no doubt have to do so again.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Ok, I just meant in this specific case. As in that particular sentence when you wrote it. There have been a few potential "they"s throughout the course of the conversation.
elbows
Well-Known Member
OK, sorry I wasnt catching your drift.
It was supposed to be a big all-encompassing "they" covering many years and not something unique to u75.
There are different sorts of concerns about trans issues, ranging from the reasonable to the transphobic, and some awkward blends of both. It seems to be especially bad in the UK. Some very specific schools of radical feminism have given an ideological, campaigning and rhetorical edge to this stuff. Some otherwise opposing interests have aligned, such as some of those particular feminist schools and evangelical religious groups and right wing media, and people who are in no way genuine friends of feminism.
Some are sincere in their beliefs, concerns and priorities, others have figured out that they can use the energy from these issues to further their broader cause. Fears often centre around proposed legislative changes, and how this could affect things such as safe spaces for women. Beyond the very real substance of this issue, others use it as a chance to promote the false narrative that this is and must be an issue of conflicting rights, where one must trump the other, and the others concerns must be marginalised. Attempts to explore the raft of possibilities where trans rights are advanced but where safeguards are very much in place to make sure womens rights and safety are not eroded at all, and are advanced too, are all too infrequent. And people start to assume bad faith at that point, because those who truly care about trans rights but are also quite rightly focussed on womens rights and safe spaces and preventing male violence, should be able to persue the latter without doing such a thoroughly unconvincing job of pretending to actually give a shit about trans rights.
I've seen that last bit play out numerous times. On the personal level, we will get some people saying how bad they feel that a particular trans member of u75 feels so awful by some of the things that are said. They will express sympathy and empathy for that person, but this never actually extends as far as having a decent discussion about how to protect trans rights at times like these. We know that over the last few years it was proposed legislative changes that fuelled a lot of the TERF arguments here and elsewhere. But after a while I picked up on the idea that these people did not just have a problem with the proposed legislation, some of the specific things they were saying were also at odds with the existing rights of trans people in this country. I asked on numerous occasions for them to clarify their support for a raft of existing and possible trans rights, and on almost every occasion they remained silent. Of course this maybe because they did not want to engage with an arsehole such as myself. But it still stands out to me as something distinct from many other more mainstream forms of bigotry, where people who want to avoid being bigots normally have no hesitation in compensating for any particular problem they have with some aspect, by providing many warm reassurances on all the other fronts where, even in their minds, there should not be a conflict of rights.
Err it was you who brought up Brexit and racism. And in later the post you replied to I said other minorites, because you are a poster in particular who has challenged prejudice on these boards. Also I have brought up many many times with lots of people the comparison between atitudes on these boards to transphobia compared to things like anti-semitism, homophobia, racism and misogyny.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Can you give a few examples from each of those three categories, please? (That's a genuine question, btw, not taking the piss.)
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