brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Even if it were just a FTA, there'd still be reason to hate it. I'm sure that many Mexicans hate NAFTA.
Tory UK EU Exit Referendum
- Thread starter paolo
- Start date
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
You sound as though you own a trans-national company!The trade block bit is the bit I want to be in!!
mauvais
on reddit or something
I quite like the EU. In the way that I quite like repeatedly falling down the stairs when the alternative being offered is brain cancer, anyway.
When Britain's authoritarian, socially right-moving illiberalism and economic fuckery outpaces the rest of bankrupt and revolting Europe's, they're marginally more on my side by passive accident than not. Not much in it, but some.
If we are going to be part of it though, we could do a lot better than our hated, disastrous, self-defeating arms length engagement with it though.
When Britain's authoritarian, socially right-moving illiberalism and economic fuckery outpaces the rest of bankrupt and revolting Europe's, they're marginally more on my side by passive accident than not. Not much in it, but some.
If we are going to be part of it though, we could do a lot better than our hated, disastrous, self-defeating arms length engagement with it though.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
bin down 'spoons?
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
The trade block bit is the bit I want to be in!!
Why? Do you export a lot of goods to European markets?
PS The really complicated bit will be which treaties we'd have to rip up in the event of vote to leave...
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
we can do that without the structure of the EU. The scandies trade under the EFTA, as does switzerland and, oddly, lichenstein
@wielty
@wielty
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
On a personal level I'm 100% in. I consider myself a European citizen, but admit Ive been bought off by the EU funding various European adventures of mine and having a partner and daughter from two further EU states makes "European" a nice hassle free label.
But politically "out" would be interesting.
Where will the "out" campaign come from?
What forces will back it?
But politically "out" would be interesting.
Where will the "out" campaign come from?
What forces will back it?
mauvais
on reddit or something
Which what?
By what means are they on my side, do you mean? Well, is it not embarrassing that we now have to count in part on EU pressure to stop our government absolving us of human rights legislation? Or to get them to clean up the air?
mauvais
on reddit or something
It's not a great model. They get a rum deal that amounts to many of the full member obligations for only some of the benefits, much as you would expect to be offered if you only wanted to half-commit to something.
Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway–European_Union_relations
Trading rights, but in return, almost all the laws, free movement of people inc. Schengen, free movement of goods, a load of money and no voting rights. This is also a historic agreement from the early days of the EEC and there's limited reason to think it would even be offered today to an exiting member, not least because it would encourage other nations.
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brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
At risk of being called an utter tool...I'm going to offer some polling evidence!
Would be a brave punter to put money on this though; those is pretty wild swings over such a comparatively short time frame. I suppose the watchword is the economy; stupid. If it were to go tits-up in Euroland (GrExit) I'd expect the lines to crossover again.
Would be a brave punter to put money on this though; those is pretty wild swings over such a comparatively short time frame. I suppose the watchword is the economy; stupid. If it were to go tits-up in Euroland (GrExit) I'd expect the lines to crossover again.
Lo Siento.
Second As Farce
You'd expect that blue line to be heading upwards in a referendum campaign, I think. Amount of cash and fearmongering they'll throw at it...At risk of being called an utter tool...I'm going to offer some polling evidence!
Would be a brave punter to put money on this though; those is pretty wild swings over such a comparatively short time frame. I suppose the watchword is the economy; stupid. If it were to go tits-up in Euroland (GrExit) I'd expect the lines to crossover again.
Dogsauce
I’ve got Skol but I’m not a Scholar
UKIP is the bogeyman now, so people will be pushed into voting against 'them' rather than about the issue, in the same way the AV referendum was skewed by people wanting to piss on Clegg's chips. I wonder if the press will behave themselves? Desmond won't, Murdoch perhaps will (bigging up whatever scraps Cameron comes home with from renegotiating).
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
What do you think the EU are going to do about the Tories scrapping human rights legislation?
I'm not embarrassed by the situation, no, but that's probably because I'm not begging the European ruling class to protect me from the British ruling class.
mauvais
on reddit or something
If the UK failed to maintain a set of national legislation that put into effect the requisites of the European Convention on Human Rights, a fundamental membership obligation, what do you suppose would happen? I don't know either, but I don't imagine it'd be straightforward.
And maybe you're not looking for that, but I'm not sure how you expect these elements to practically improve if we exit either. Are the left going to rise up from the grave any time soon?
hot air baboon
Well-Known Member
...its something of a political truism that referenda end up being treated as a sort of by-election opportunity to kick the incumbent govt if they have incurred public disfavour...so not surprising they are strongly incentivised to go early in the parliament...
...are the pro-EU contingent really chilled over what has been inflicted on Ireland & Greece under EU diktat & the necessity when joining the euro to forever forgo exchange rate adjustment for Internal_devaluation..?
...are the pro-EU contingent really chilled over what has been inflicted on Ireland & Greece under EU diktat & the necessity when joining the euro to forever forgo exchange rate adjustment for Internal_devaluation..?
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Maybe, but the polling seems to react quite sensitively to 'events'....dear boy.
gosub
~#
except. most of the EU stuff is their interpretation of global agreements, which Norway has a seat on, whilst individual EU members don't.
ffsear
Well-Known Member
Cameron will produce some way of recommending a "yes" vote to stay in, after getting some sort of concessions from Europe, which they will offer for him to be able to produce them here (maybe not in this forum, when I say "here", but in this country, anyway).
It will not satisfy his backbenchers like that nice Jacob Rees-Moggy-The-Pussycat, but he will manage it anyway, is my guess.
Strangely, a Brexit was more likely after a Labour government, in my opinion, because Cameron would have resigned (of course) if Labour won, and then the next Conservative leader would be a Eurosceptic or Euroscepchick, and so after 2020 there would have been a Brexit.
But now probably not?
It will not satisfy his backbenchers like that nice Jacob Rees-Moggy-The-Pussycat, but he will manage it anyway, is my guess.
Strangely, a Brexit was more likely after a Labour government, in my opinion, because Cameron would have resigned (of course) if Labour won, and then the next Conservative leader would be a Eurosceptic or Euroscepchick, and so after 2020 there would have been a Brexit.
But now probably not?
mauvais
on reddit or something
No, it's grim, and the ever-larger sprawl of the monetary union project far beyond its closely-aligned origins and far outpacing a sensible timeline has always been predictably disastrous, like trying to play economic Jenga in a hurry, and thus wholly avoidable.
Nonetheless even that has deep complexities - I'm no economist but on the face of it, the EU brought boom as well as bust to Ireland, for example, and the crisis that brought it all down was/is one of simply beyond the Eurozone, and so what would have happened to these countries without integration?
I don't know how anyone forms a coherent narrative out of it, to be honest.
As for the social project, though, and the ever-closer union of that, I enjoy the benefits of it. It doesn't excuse the economic train wreck, and they can't be entirely separated now, but to me the net effect calls for a reworking of the union rather than the abandonment and destruction of it.
mauvais
on reddit or something
I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, but can you quantify/qualify this idea of EU legislation being globally and externally led? Someone has to be driving said agreements; they don't just materialise. I also don't agree about voting; you're quite right that Norway has a global voice of its own, but not on EU internal matters, and it's curious to say that EU members lack influence on EU behaviour, because they clearly have representation. Just perhaps not disproportionately, i.e. a veto.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I love the confused looks on the faces of the the shouty right-wingers in my life when i say I'm against the EU
(same thing happens when i say i don't support Labour)
Vote Yes to leave, give the Scots another go. Love europe hate the EU. etc etc.
Me too
gosub
~#
I did n't say EU couldn't influence EU matters, but EU members have to abide by a common approach to global agreements. Though if you want to bring up vetoes, most of them have gone, replaced by majority rule, and Cameron's "heroic veto
" didn't stop ALL other states adopting the measures he opposed.Cameron will come back with "associate membership" (that all non EUro members will be offered) try to sell it as the great victory, when that is the path closest to government by Fax.
As to quatifying I wish i could, it one of the areas In or Out that gets examined -where are legislation comes from. As it is there isn't even wide spread agreement on what %UK law eminates from Brussels let alone looking further back.
mauvais
on reddit or something
How does this common approach to global agreements equate to no voice though? It amounts to an aggregate rather than independent voice, I agree, but it still appears to a common approach that was the result of member decisions, rather than decided upon by some other central policymaker. Maybe I'm naive & totally wrong but I'd like to see it. As for veto, I don't mean literal Security Council style stuff, I mean using that independent voice to say, 'we will be an intolerably large pain in your arse if you don't do our bidding'.I did n't say EU couldn't influence EU matters, but EU members have to abide by a common approach to global agreements. Though if you want to bring up vetoes, most of them have gone, replaced by majority rule, and Cameron's "heroic veto
Cameron will come back with "associate membership" (that all non EUro members will be offered) try to sell it as the great victory, when that is the path closest to government by Fax.
This is along the lines of what I mean about the arms length approach. You can accuse the EU of anti-democratic practice, like repeatedly re-serving negatively voted choices until the 'right' answer is finally selected, but it seems harder to accuse it of anti-democratic structure. Democratic results that you don't like are still democratic, and if your national representation can't be bothered or engaged enough to form meaningful alliances, or even simply turn up and vote, then with the exception of those who want to either exit or bring down the house, it's a bit rich to complain.
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