Tory MP David Amess Stabbed to Death 15/10/21

[chilango]

if the reporting this morning is accurate, and I stress the if, then some of the attempts on here to contextualise the motives and political processes motivating the killer: closed off routes of protest, cuts etc look embarrassingly wide of the mark.

The context remains the same. Domestic jihadis aren't formed in a vacuum.

 

[Yossarian]

Just for the record, and without wanting to pick up where we left off, it wasn't you offering me out that ended the argument; that happened when I decided to back off after you revealed the fragility of your mental health.

"I don't want to restart the argument but here's my opposing opinion on why the argument ended."

 

[brogdale]

The context remains the same. Domestic jihadis aren't formed in a vacuum.

Nor their 'tactics', targets etc.
If this were to mark a transition from slaughtering innocents to a more targeted attacks on the state, that would be significant.

 

[SpookyFrank]

it's a credit to this place that people didn't jump to conclusions and considered all the other reasons somebody might have for killing a Tory MP.

Well not all of them, or the number of pages on this thread would be approaching Ramanujan's constant.

 

[Athos]

"I don't want to restart the argument but here's my opposing opinion on why the argument ended."

It's not an opinion, so much as a statement of fact. The thread is they're for anyone to see.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

U75...no speculation...hmm

Jean Charles - lest we forget

 

[SpookyFrank]

It's not an opinion, so much as a statement of fact. The thread is they're for anyone to see.

Yeah, it's there and not here. Let's keep it that way.

 

[andysays]

Not at all, the Tories are scum. I hate the bastards. However, I would like to see some evidence for the claim that "this is the absolutely direct manifestation of the society designed and implemented by him and his colleagues."

A few polices that have directly caused this or some kind of lizard like plan other than the Tories generally being shitty.

Not really a hard ask is it?

Haven't yet read the whole thread. I imagine this has already been quoted, but in case it hasn't

"There's no such thing as society"

Thatcher, Margaret. 1987. ‘Interview for “Woman’s Own” (“No Such Thing as Society”).’ in Margaret Thatcher Foundation: Speeches, Interviews and Other Statements. London

 

[Pickman's model]

I want to know if they had met before, still hoping there's a case file somewhere about how the mp failed to help with his neighbour's overgrown leilandii or whatever. Stabbing someone 17 times (reportedly) after waiting patiently for your turn in the queue does seem unusual.

yes, it's the sort of consideration for others you so rarely see in killers

 

[agricola]

I was meaning that ( if true ) he handed himself in peacefully. The reports say he remained calm. I was comparing this part of the scenario with European attacks. I am not au fait with UK ones, as there havent been so many. I can remember the London Bridge one where the suspect fought with passerby as they tried to capture him. I cant remember any attack that ended with the suspect remaining calm and waiting to hand himself in. Is handing himself in calmly a rare end scenario? Id say so. Most endings are different. I can remember another where the police shot the suspect dead, cant remember which attack it was.

That has been most of them - both London Bridge incidents, the Streatham incident and the first Westminster Bridge incident all had the various suspects shot dead by cops. The Lee Rigby murderers were shot (albeit non-fatally) too. The second Westminster attack, Reading, Finsbury Park, Birdsall and Manchester Victoria are IIRC the exceptions in the post-2010 incidents.

Of course in almost all of the ones where shots were fired (the first London Bridge incident is the exception) the first unit to get on scene was armed, which in the circumstances (suspect who is not arsed about dying and cops with loads of justification to shoot) probably makes what followed so much more likely. For at least two of the other ones (Reading and Birdsall) and this one unarmed cops apparently got there first.

 

[maomao]

Just for the record, and without wanting to pick up where we left off, it wasn't you offering me out that ended the argument; that happened when I decided to back off after you revealed the fragility of your mental health.

I'm grateful beyond words for your kindness

 

[Pickman's model]

"I don't want to restart the argument but here's my opposing opinion on why the argument ended."

you've seen the athos show before i think

 

[platinumsage]

I am a bit disappointed that a tabloid hasn't doorstepped the attacker's estranged uncle yet.

 

[two sheds]

That he queued does suggest he's a home-grown terrorist.

 

[Serene]

That has been most of them - both London Bridge incidents, the Streatham incident and the first Westminster Bridge incident all had the various suspects shot dead by cops. The Lee Rigby murderers were shot (albeit non-fatally) too. The second Westminster attack, Reading, Finsbury Park, Birdsall and Manchester Victoria are IIRC the exceptions in the post-2010 incidents.

Of course in almost all of the ones where shots were fired (the first London Bridge incident is the exception) the first unit to get on scene was armed, which in the circumstances (suspect who is not arsed about dying and cops with loads of justification to shoot) probably makes what followed so much more likely. For at least two of the other ones (Reading and Birdsall) and this one unarmed cops apparently got there first.

You have more knowledge of such occasions. Which of those occasions, or any, are the ones where the suspect waited calmly for the Police to arrive, and without harming anyone else in that period of time? To me it doesnt seem an ordinary end to such occasions. Which other incidents have been the same?

 

[chilango]

I hope the Police are meet an open mind in their investigations.


Amess could've had underlying health conditions which meant he died 'with being stabbed' rather than 'of being stabbed'.

 

[Orang Utan]

I imagine the right wing US commentators are excitedly blathering about how mass gun ownership would have prevented this or some such nonsense. I haven’t the heart to read too much social media this morning - got into a disagreement with an American yesterday over the meaning of the word ‘surgery’ and that was enough for me

 

[bimble]

I see that the dead man was quite involved in holocaust education efforts and apparently said in jan this year 'there is Jewish blood in each and every one of us. I would certainly have been proud to have been born a Jew', which tbh is a bit of a weird thing to say but hopefully an irrelevance.

 

[agricola]

You have more knowledge of such occasions. Which of those occasions, or any, are the ones where the suspect waited calmly for the Police to arrive, and without harming anyone else in that period of time? To me it doesnt seem an ordinary end to such occasions. Which other incidents have been the same?

To do both (not attack others and wait on scene) is the unusual thing, but the Lee Rigby murderers didn't attack anyone else nearby (though they had ample opportunity) and most of them didn't try to leave (the Reading murderer might have been trying to but was bundled over in the process by unarmed cops; the Finsbury park murderer didn't get the chance as he was detained by the crowd).

 

[Serene]

To do both (not attack others and wait on scene) is the unusual thing, but the Lee Rigby murderers didn't attack anyone else nearby (though they had ample opportunity) and most of them didn't try to leave (the Reading murderer might have been trying to but was bundled over in the process by unarmed cops; the Finsbury park murderer didn't get the chance as he was detained by the crowd).

So can we say that in observance with other incidents that waiting peacefully afterwards and doing no further harm is quite rare?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

The context remains the same.

I’m not convinced your ‘alienation and external conditions’ argument does apply here Chilango. The determinist argument never does with these types of events imho

 

[Orang Utan]

So can we say that in observance with other incidents that waiting peacefully afterwards and doing no further harm is quite rare?

Where are you going with this?

 

[keybored]

He was quite difficult to put into a box, wasn't he?

Apparently not.

 

[brogdale]

it is the urban way

Leaving me (oddly?) with an unwanted ear worm...

 

[Serene]

Edit. Double post, I am putting my rollers in.

 

[Serene]

Where are you going with this?

To establish a picture of the occasion in the interest of truth.

 

[Pickman's model]

Leaving me (oddly?) with an unwanted ear worm...

View attachment 292902

this'll sort you out

 

[bimble]

i was unaware of this story here, where the stabber explained they did it cos the mp voted for the iraq war.

Stabbing of Stephen Timms - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Orang Utan]

To establish a picture of the occasion in the interest of truth.

Perhaps you should wait til the facts emerge then

 

[Serene]

Perhaps you should wait til the facts emerge then

Where have you been? Some of the facts have already emerged. You may put me on ignore if you dont wish to read my posts, it is quite within your rights.