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The Virgin Mary

I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make. Some of the Eastern Churches are separated from the Roman Church, some are not.

The theology is identical. How could you possibly understand what I posted as insulting to the Churches of the East?

My guess is that, like many of the posters in these theologically themed threads, you are spoiling for a fight with those of us who are loyal to Roman Catholicism.

How very Cromwellian of you...
The first churches were founded by the first Christians in Palestine/Syria.

The Roman Catholic Church was found subsequently. Yet it claims to be the first church, and claims that the other are splitters.

You are just spouting the lies about the history of Christianity that the Roman Catholic Church tells its adherents to justify itself.

You are being a bit of Crusader, matey.
 
Another point to consider is this:
If the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church were only established hundreds of years after the death of Jesus, then the first Christians cannot have been following the correct path. They could not have been proper Chrisitians, even though they had actually followed Jesus when he was alive.
 
Another point to consider is this:
If the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church were only established hundreds of years after the death of Jesus, then the first Christians cannot have been following the correct path. They could not have been proper Chrisitians, even though they had actually followed Jesus when he was alive.

Indeed, the Roman Catholic Church clawed its way through and out of a veritable bloodbath of heresies, blasphemies, apostasies and paganisms to get where it is today.
 
Indeed, the Roman Catholic Church clawed its way through and out of a veritable bloodbath of heresies, blasphemies, apostasies and paganisms to get where it is today.
Clawed and instigated.

Can't imagine Joshua/Jesus would have been impressed with all the carnage.
 
Another point to consider is this:
If the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church were only established hundreds of years after the death of Jesus, then the first Christians cannot have been following the correct path. They could not have been proper Chrisitians, even though they had actually followed Jesus when he was alive.
Surely matters of doctrine develop and are revised from within christianity. From the admission of gentiles to canonical texts in the early years.
 
Surely matters of doctrine develop and are revised from within christianity. From the admission of gentiles to canonical texts in the early years.
In other words, it's a fluid thing and what the hardcore (bcuster etc) would have us believing is up for debate/schisms and maybe even ridicule. I.e. it's not, nor ever was written in stone.
 
In other words, it's a fluid thing and what the hardcore (bcuster etc) would have us believing is up for debate/schisms and maybe even ridicule. I.e. it's not, nor ever was written in stone.
I suppose that's right and makes sense imv, yeah. There's factions and political leanings within the RC Church clearly enough.
 
Well, they were written in stone twice.

And the second time round seven of them were different, despite God explicitly saying he was writing the same stuff that was on the first ones.
There are three versions of the Ten Commandments in the Testament that Christians call "Old".
 
Out of interest, do you have a source for that?
I read that there were three versions of the Ten Commandments, and that different churches number them differently, in “The Old Testament: A Very Short Introduction” by Michael D. Coogan.

See also Wikipedia.

Wikipedia says:

“The text of the Ten Commandments was dynamic in ancient Israel and appears in three markedly distinct versions in the Bible at Exodus 20:2–17, Deuteronomy 5:6–21, and the "Ritual Decalogue" of Exodus 34:11–26.
 
I read that there were three versions of the Ten Commandments, and that different churches number them differently, in “The Old Testament: A Very Short Introduction” by Michael D. Coogan.

See also Wikipedia.

Wikipedia says:

“The text of the Ten Commandments was dynamic in ancient Israel and appears in three markedly distinct versions in the Bible at Exodus 20:2–17, Deuteronomy 5:6–21, and the "Ritual Decalogue" of Exodus 34:11–26.

Thanks, I'll have a read of that later.
 
I'm a lifelong atheist and I've never considered the bible (or any other religious text) to be anything vaguely authoritative and it's been a lifelong puzzle to me why people do. But having thought about this a good deal, the existence of religious faith tells us things about humanity - not all of it good things but not all of it bad things either. Ie. how we shape and manipulate the texts, how we can reason profoundly but not necessarily rigorously, how we long for a sense of community and how we are influenced profoundly by respected members of our community (or more narrowly family).

And I understand the best predictor of whether you believe or not is whether the people you respect believe or not (citation needed, I know). Not how rational you are or how good you are at asking difficult questions, or how good you are at verbal pugilism. We are, after all social animals, not rational individuals.

Jesus asked a crowd stoning a woman "he who is without sin among you, cast the first stone." This appears only in the Gospel according to John and it's not in the earliest versions, so this story is almost certainly apocryphal. We can do this rational scepticism about this story, and yet it's still somehow powerful.

I think some of the people casting stones on this thread should ask themselves what is the causal (causal not the rational - big distinction) reason they are atheists? What circumstances (not inner ponderings) led you to atheism (or to religion for that matter). I would put it to you if the important intellectual figures in your life were religious, you would be of their religion too. Religious belief is a very human thing you are taking people to task over.
Some truth in that no doubt it is at least a factor. Certainly the people I respect most are fellow atheists. Whether that is a cause or an effect I cannot know.
As for asking what leads someone to atheism surely in the absence of any evidence for something (in this case a God) the default is not to believe it exists.
May I ask what led you to atheism?
 
Some truth in that no doubt it is at least a factor. Certainly the people I respect most are fellow atheists. Whether that is a cause or an effect I cannot know.
As for asking what leads someone to atheism surely in the absence of any evidence for something (in this case a God) the default is not to believe it exists.
May I ask what led you to atheism?

It's very difficult to give an accurate and honest answer. I think I went backwards and forwards on that question up until I was about 20 and I wasn't even a scientific sceptic until a few years after that. I had to learn sceptical thinking. At 12 I had invented my own gods, at 15 I was an atheist nihilist, at 18 I was interested in Buddhism and Pythagoreanism and Platonism and I think at that age I believed there was "something" although I was still a nihilistic.

How did I get to these positions? I think a lot and not necessarily in a very disciplined way. But I was always irreligious. And that's the crucial factor I think.

I wasn't brought up with religion and I always had an interest in science (astronomy and natural history) that led to an instinctive naturalism (but not a firm grasp of the scientific method). The above philosophies were somewhat experimental. But that's just belief, what is much more important was the sense that religion was something alien and suffocating and arbitrary and I think I had that sense going way back to early childhood.

It does occur to me that if someone had shown me the works of Meister Ekhart or Origen or Ibn Arabi or something with a bit of heft, I may have adopted some sort of religion. It would not seem so arbitrary and senseless and frankly stupid. I mean if someone says to you that Jesus died for your sins, it doesn't mean very much, and the person saying it probably hasn't the first clue what it means. It is just stupid conformity for the most part. But deeply religious people have always fascinated me. I want to listen to people who have given it a bit of thought. It's just I have not met one who has shaken that sense of revulsion at religion.
 
If I may jump in .....
There is respecting a person on one hand, and respecting a person's ideas on the other hand. They are not at all the same thing. Religion is not primarily about ideas, it is primarily about a way of living (the Latin roots of the word "religion" lies in the sphere of activity, not beliefs.)
 
If I may jump in .....
There is respecting a person on one hand, and respecting a person's ideas on the other hand. They are not at all the same thing. Religion is not primarily about ideas, it is primarily about a way of living (the Latin roots of the word "religion" lies in the sphere of activity, not beliefs.)

Ideas/beliefs and activity/ways of living are closely related to each other though.

For many religions, holding particular beliefs is pretty pointless in itself if those beliefs don't help guide your behaviour.
 
If I may jump in .....
There is respecting a person on one hand, and respecting a person's ideas on the other hand. They are not at all the same thing. Religion is not primarily about ideas, it is primarily about a way of living (the Latin roots of the word "religion" lies in the sphere of activity, not beliefs.)

It's a very Christian (Pauline) idea that belief is primary over practice. You have to believe in the resurrection to be saved (though the author of Matthew says the opposite). I guess this is closely related to Paul allowing gentiles who don't follow Jewish law into the sect - not to put too fine a point on it, they didn't have to be circumsized. I don't know if there are any other religions that work that way.
 
the Latin roots of the word "religion" lies in the sphere of activity, not beliefs.
Etymology is not destiny, and certainly not in this case. Why should all religions conform to an alleged Latin etymology? (It appears to mean 're-binding', and no, nobody really knows what that is supposed to mean.)
 
In practice I think Christianity is about practice, they only believe it's about belief.

Though you do get hard core Christian anti-religion. Eg. The Puritans banning Christmas.
 
Ideas/beliefs and activity/ways of living are closely related to each other though.

For many religions, holding particular beliefs is pretty pointless in itself if those beliefs don't help guide your behaviour.
I agree. However in my experience there is a huge range of belief in any single congregation, ranging from total acceptance of doctrines to "Im here becasue thats where my social group is, and a like a good community sing on a Sunday morning."
 
It's a very Christian (Pauline) idea that belief is primary over practice. You have to believe in the resurrection to be saved (though the author of Matthew says the opposite). I guess this is closely related to Paul allowing gentiles who don't follow Jewish law into the sect - not to put too fine a point on it, they didn't have to be circumsized. I don't know if there are any other religions that work that way.
Yes there are denominations who believe that belief comes first but that it must be reflected in life-style etc. While other take a more 50/50 approach. Interestingly Jesus taught that people will be judged on actions and listed feeding the poor, clothing the naked, visiting prisoners as among the most important things to prioritise.
 
Yes there are denominations who believe that belief comes first but that it must be reflected in life-style etc. While other take a more 50/50 approach. Interestingly Jesus taught that people will be judged on actions and listed feeding the poor, clothing the naked, visiting prisoners as among the most important things to prioritise.
It seems to me that many churchgoers believe the opposite of what Jesus actually taught.
 
Yes there are denominations who believe that belief comes first but that it must be reflected in life-style etc. While other take a more 50/50 approach. Interestingly Jesus taught that people will be judged on actions and listed feeding the poor, clothing the naked, visiting prisoners as among the most important things to prioritise.

We don't know what Jesus taught. That's Jesus in Matthew.
 
My incredibly devout Catholic mate posted a great bonkers Virgin Mary meme the other day, I meant to nick it to share here but it's gone now. Nevermind. Has everyone managed to reach agreement about Mary now then?
 
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