The Virgin Mary

[krtek a houby]

I can answer that question. Catholicism is the ONLY religion founded by (a) God, that is Jesus Christ. All other religions were founded by human males

The cult was founded by one of the disciples, iirc.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I can answer that question. Catholicism is the ONLY religion founded by (a) God, that is Jesus Christ. All other religions were founded by human males

What about Christian Science? That was founded by a woman.

And Catholicism wasn't founded by Jesus. He wasn't keen on organised religion, according to the gospels. Paul was the guilty party.

 

[Orang Utan]

All other religions were founded by human males

No, they were founded by extraterrestrial elohim.

 

[bcuster]

What about Christian Science? That was founded by a woman.

And Catholicism wasn't founded by Jesus. He wasn't keen on organised religion, according to the gospels. Paul was the guilty party.

You got me on Christian Science, still a human, though..,


Just ask Alexa who founded the Catholic Church. You’ll get the correct answer

 

[krtek a houby]

Jesus was a human.

 

[Serge Forward]

Daft, I call it.

 

[krtek a houby]

Daft, I call it.

His regard for his "father" was certainly daft and misguided, but the Jesus seemed to be coming from a good place. All the divinity shit and the shills pushing it here, can get to fuck, though.

 

[bcuster]

Jesus did not found the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[bcuster]

Oth the protestants view

 

[andysays]

I've been accused of casting stones, so I'll have a go.

I grew up in a secular family. This was unusual at that place and time. Everyone I knew had some religion, even if they rarely or never went to a place of worship, and most did at least on special occasions. I was brought up to respect all religions, but it just wasn't something we did. And that bothered me. They were all so attractive in their way -- the rituals, the music, all the rest of it.
To my childish mind, there was obviously a god, and this god must have given us a correct religion to live by. But which one was it? I knew Jews, and Catholics, and Protestants of various flavours; I didn't know any Muslims or Hindus or members of other faiths, but I knew they existed, and there was no reason to think that a particular religion wasn't the right one just because I didn't happen to be around its adherents.
I went through agonies between the ages of maybe eight and 12 or so. One week one set of beliefs and rituals seemed the right one, next week it was another. I prayed to this god or gods to give me a sign. How about a dream? That's the sort of thing gods do, in many cultures. But it never happened.
Then I read a novel where a character says that expecting humans to pick the right religion from all the ones that were available was a pretty sloppy way to run a universe. And I suddenly felt liberated; the scales fell from my eyes. Of course it was sloppy. The whole thing was really very silly.
Some years later, I learnt about the textual transmission of the Bible, which crushed any potential tendencies for taking it seriously as the revealed word of a supernatural deity. (You're the only person to bring up the problem with the story about the woman taken in adultery; I've never met a believer who was aware of the issue.)

So my question to those who are committed to a particular form of religion is: there are dozens of creeds positing things for which there is absolutely no evidence. If yours is right, they have to be wrong, at least in the literal sense. To take one glaring example: either Jesus is the son of god and the way to eternal life, as the Christians say, or he's one of the prophets, but not the last or the most important one, as Muslims say, or nobody in particular, just an unconventional preacher, as everyone else says. They can't all be right. What reason do you have for deciding to believe your particular set of improbable and unprovable teachings?

They never really answer that one.

Sounds like Kurt Vonnegut, though maybe it was someone else.

It isn't really about evidence, which is why these arguments about proving that God exists or that one religion is the right one are ultimately pointless. It's about faith.

I heard something interesting the other day. I don't know if it's true, but it's interesting to me even if it isn't true. Apparently, to be a Jew you don't have to believe in God, you just have to behave as if you believe in God.

I didn't use to believe in God, but some years ago when I met my partner who is a life-long Catholic, I started behaving as if I believed in God. I went to Mass with her, although I wasn't able to take Communion, and I made an increased effort to follow what I understood as the teachings of Jesus.

After a few years, we were married in a Catholic church. A few years before that, I had never dreamed I would even get married, far less in a religious ceremony. And then about a year ago, I decided I wanted to become a full Catholic, so along with about half a dozen other adults I went through a few months of preparation, learning about the teachings of the Catholic faith.

At Easter, we were all Confirmed into the Church together and took our first Holy Communion together. I still go to Mass most Sundays, and I'm involved in other activities through the Church.

I'm still not sure if I believe in God, so in some sense of the word my faith isn't very strong. But I'm still continuing to behave as if I believe in God, and as if the teachings of the Church are important to follow (or to try and follow. It's accepted that we're all imperfect and will sometimes fail). I don't know if I will ever achieve the level of faith some of those around me (including my wife) have achieved, but I don't think that's really that important (for me, at least).

Having an element of faith in my life has made me a happier person, maybe even a better person. I'm fully aware that the Catholic Church has a problematic history and still has some problems even now, but that doesn't detract from the benefit that ordinary people gain from their faith, or the good that those people do in the world because of their faith, and in that I'm not just talking about Catholicism.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Sounds like Kurt Vonnegut, though maybe it was someone else.

It isn't really about evidence, which is why these arguments about proving that God exists or that one religion is the right one are ultimately pointless. It's about faith.

I heard something interesting the other day. I don't know if it's true, but it's interesting to me even if it isn't true. Apparently, to be a Jew you don't have to believe in God, you just have to behave as if you believe in God.

I didn't use to believe in God, but some years ago when I met my partner who is a life-long Catholic, I started behaving as if I believed in God. I went to Mass with her, although I wasn't able to take Communion, and I made an increased effort to follow what I understood as the teachings of Jesus.

After a few years, we were married in a Catholic church. A few years before that, I had never dreamed I would even get married, far less in a religious ceremony. And then about a year ago, I decided I wanted to become a full Catholic, so along with about half a dozen other adults I went through a few months of preparation, learning about the teachings of the Catholic faith.

At Easter, we were all Confirmed into the Church together and took our first Holy Communion together. I still go to Mass most Sundays, and I'm involved in other activities through the Church.

I'm still not sure if I believe in God, so in some sense of the word my faith isn't very strong. But I'm still continuing to behave as if I believe in God, and as if the teachings of the Church are important to follow (or to try and follow. It's accepted that we're all imperfect and will sometimes fail). I don't know if I will ever achieve the level of faith some of those around me (including my wife) have achieved, but I don't think that's really that important (for me, at least).

Having an element of faith in my life has made me a happier person, maybe even a better person. I'm fully aware that the Catholic Church has a problematic history and still has some problems even now, but that doesn't detract from the benefit that ordinary people gain from their faith, or the good that those people do in the world because of their faith, and in that I'm not just talking about Catholicism.

Sounds to me that you love your wife. A lot. All power to you both.

 

[Knotted]

I've been accused of casting stones, so I'll have a go.

I grew up in a secular family. This was unusual at that place and time. Everyone I knew had some religion, even if they rarely or never went to a place of worship, and most did at least on special occasions. I was brought up to respect all religions, but it just wasn't something we did. And that bothered me. They were all so attractive in their way -- the rituals, the music, all the rest of it.
To my childish mind, there was obviously a god, and this god must have given us a correct religion to live by. But which one was it? I knew Jews, and Catholics, and Protestants of various flavours; I didn't know any Muslims or Hindus or members of other faiths, but I knew they existed, and there was no reason to think that a particular religion wasn't the right one just because I didn't happen to be around its adherents.
I went through agonies between the ages of maybe eight and 12 or so. One week one set of beliefs and rituals seemed the right one, next week it was another. I prayed to this god or gods to give me a sign. How about a dream? That's the sort of thing gods do, in many cultures. But it never happened.
Then I read a novel where a character says that expecting humans to pick the right religion from all the ones that were available was a pretty sloppy way to run a universe. And I suddenly felt liberated; the scales fell from my eyes. Of course it was sloppy. The whole thing was really very silly.
Some years later, I learnt about the textual transmission of the Bible, which crushed any potential tendencies for taking it seriously as the revealed word of a supernatural deity. (You're the only person to bring up the problem with the story about the woman taken in adultery; I've never met a believer who was aware of the issue.)

So my question to those who are committed to a particular form of religion is: there are dozens of creeds positing things for which there is absolutely no evidence. If yours is right, they have to be wrong, at least in the literal sense. To take one glaring example: either Jesus is the son of god and the way to eternal life, as the Christians say, or he's one of the prophets, but not the last or the most important one, as Muslims say, or nobody in particular, just an unconventional preacher, as everyone else says. They can't all be right. What reason do you have for deciding to believe your particular set of improbable and unprovable teachings?

They never really answer that one.

For me, I grew up with quietly atheist parents and went to CofE schools where we were expected to pray and sing hymns. So I have this very odd idea that religion isn't to do with what you believe in in the first place. It's a sort of odd social obligation some people have. (I know that's not exactly true, but it is my prejudice.)

Really I think it's about ideological reflexes rather than rational thought or arbitrary belief.

I don't think even as a young child that I believed in a human centred universe. The whole question of trying to devine a higher purpose or the nature of a fatherly figure looking after it all has always seemed odd. I don't think this is something I was taught, but it was just something in the air, it's the modern ideology (Kant called it the Copernican revolution IIRC). And if you don't believe in a human centred universe then all religion seems arbitrary. One belief in a supernatural being is much the same as another because whatever that being is, we're not the centre of its concerns. So believing God is much the same as not believing in God from this point view. So even if you go through a phase of believing in something or other, you'll probably just grow out of it. The modern ideology is powerful and mostly subconscious. But its not universal.

This is not to say that this modern ideology is wrong, I'm convinced of it to this day but it wasn't a choice, it wasn't a revelation, it's just there. Part of my background. And I think for a lot of religious people this modern ideology is presented with a human centred universe alternative from a young age. Where God kindly looks after his flock (not too kindly if you read the bible of course! - but they usually don't tell children about those bits).

So I didn't outsmart religion, and so I certainly won't be able to outsmart other people's religion.

I actually have an answer to your question about why one religion over another. Or at least I can tell you the answer to "why Christianity?" as it's the one I'm familiar with. It's not an answer I expect will convince you of anything, but it shows that if you have a more human centred universe type of view there is real and genuine thought that might go into your specific beliefs.

Christianity has a very obvious unique selling point. It's also its most obvious and immediate failing. That is that its key figure achieved nothing and was tortured to death. Jesus was not a mover and shaker but a wretched soul. And it is this total irony that makes the central message of the New Testament that the world is about to be turned upside down strangely compelling. Especially for the wretched of the earth. And if you add in the neo-platonic extras (not in the New Testament) about abstract souls going to abstract soul heaven you have a message of individual redemption and a just universe. All this is powerful and there is no religious package that works in the same way. Key Jewish or Islamic key figures for instance were all powerful leaders or at least of historic significance. I won't say what I think is the better religion, but there is a real choice and there are reasons to choose one over the other (if that option is available to you).

 

[Knotted]

Fwiw I think the most likely person who founded Christianity was John the Baptist. That's the apparent start of the tradition/sect. That it grew into something else post Jesus is not saying much. It grew into all manner of diverse beliefs many of which most modern Christians would not recognise as Christian.

 

[PTK]

Sounds like Kurt Vonnegut, though maybe it was someone else.

It isn't really about evidence, which is why these arguments about proving that God exists or that one religion is the right one are ultimately pointless. It's about faith.

I heard something interesting the other day. I don't know if it's true, but it's interesting to me even if it isn't true. Apparently, to be a Jew you don't have to believe in God, you just have to behave as if you believe in God.

I didn't use to believe in God, but some years ago when I met my partner who is a life-long Catholic, I started behaving as if I believed in God. I went to Mass with her, although I wasn't able to take Communion, and I made an increased effort to follow what I understood as the teachings of Jesus.

After a few years, we were married in a Catholic church. A few years before that, I had never dreamed I would even get married, far less in a religious ceremony. And then about a year ago, I decided I wanted to become a full Catholic, so along with about half a dozen other adults I went through a few months of preparation, learning about the teachings of the Catholic faith.

At Easter, we were all Confirmed into the Church together and took our first Holy Communion together. I still go to Mass most Sundays, and I'm involved in other activities through the Church.

I'm still not sure if I believe in God, so in some sense of the word my faith isn't very strong. But I'm still continuing to behave as if I believe in God, and as if the teachings of the Church are important to follow (or to try and follow. It's accepted that we're all imperfect and will sometimes fail). I don't know if I will ever achieve the level of faith some of those around me (including my wife) have achieved, but I don't think that's really that important (for me, at least).

Having an element of faith in my life has made me a happier person, maybe even a better person. I'm fully aware that the Catholic Church has a problematic history and still has some problems even now, but that doesn't detract from the benefit that ordinary people gain from their faith, or the good that those people do in the world because of their faith, and in that I'm not just talking about Catholicism.

I would say that the ban contraception is someting that continues to call suffering in the world today.

 

[PTK]

So who founded all those churches in Egypt, Syria, Palesine, Iraq, etc?

 

[PTK]

Fwiw I think the most likely person who founded Christianity was John the Baptist. That's the apparent start of the tradition/sect. That it grew into something else post Jesus is not saying much. It grew into all manner of diverse beliefs many of which most modern Christians would not recognise as Christian.

You may be right, but the Roman Catholic Church is not identical to Christianity.

 

[Knotted]

You may be right, but the Roman Catholic Church is not identical to Christianity.

I guess the Catholic Church as we know it with its Trinitarian doctrine was founded in 325 CE at the first council of Nicea?

 

[bcuster]

So who founded all those churches in Egypt, Syria, Palesine, Iraq, etc?

They, to a greater or smaller degree, have separated themselves from the One. Church. The theology is largely identical. Certain issues regarding episcopal hierarchy have separated us from our Eastern brothers and sisters

 

[bcuster]

I guess the Catholic Church as we know it with its Trinitarian doctrine was founded in 325 CE at the first council of Nicea?

The doctrine was clarified and solidified there

 

[PTK]

They, to a greater or smaller degree, have separated themselves from the One. Church. The theology is largely identical. Certain issues regarding episcopal hierarchy have separated us from our Eastern brothers and sisters

The churches in Palestine and Syria, etc, have not separated from the Roman Catholic Church. They existed before the Roman Catholic Church.
You are insulting the churches founded by the first Christians.
What you are spouting is the self-justifying distortion of history of an organisation.

 

[bcuster]

The churches in Palestine and Syria, etc, have not separated from the Roman Catholic Church. They existed before the Roman Catholic Church.
You are insulting the churches founded by the first Christians.
What you are spouting is the self-justifying distortion of history of an organisation.

I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make. Some of the Eastern Churches are separated from the Roman Church, some are not.

The theology is identical. How could you possibly understand what I posted as insulting to the Churches of the East?

My guess is that, like many of the posters in these theologically themed threads, you are spoiling for a fight with those of us who are loyal to Roman Catholicism.

How very Cromwellian of you...

 

[Knotted]

The early Christian church(es) had wildly different doctrines to each other and to what became "orthodoxy" that make the modern differences between Catholics and Protestants look miniscule.

 

[bcuster]

The early Christian church(es) had wildly different doctrines to each other and to what became "orthodoxy" that make the modern differences between Catholics and Protestants look miniscule.

Some were so different that their doctrines were & are considered heretical.

I'm not aware of anything in the Protestant Church that considered heretical, perhaps the various splinters of Protestantism consider each other heretical....

 

[Knotted]

Some were so different that their doctrines were & are considered heretical.

I'm not aware of anything in the Protestant Church that considered heretical, perhaps the various splinters of Protestantism consider each other heretical....

They didn't consider themselves heretrical!

 

[bcuster]

They didn't consider themselves heretrical!

Well, the splinters are in no way unified. A single, free standing church in the countryside can be considered a "denomination".

The chaos of Protestantism has been the result...

And to those who who would point to Schism in the Catholic Church, my response would be that there much more unity on the theology

 

[Knotted]

Well, the splinters are in no way unified. A single, free standing church in the countryside can be considered a "denomination".

The chaos of Protestantism has been the result...

And to those who who would point to Schism in the Catholic Church, my response would be that there much more unity on the theology

But the ability to pull in more people and be more unified doesn't speak to truthfulness. Why would your Catholic/Orthodox/Protestant Irenaean Christianity be more valid than Valentinian Christianity?

 

[bcuster]

It's all very complicated. Valentinian Christianity is considered Gnostic and heretical.

and yes, I had to google that...

We rely on the various Councils of the Church and the Fathers of the Church such as Irenaeus, etc in antiquity to have sorted it all out for us...

 

[Knotted]

It's all very complicated. Valentinian Christianity is considered Gnostic and heretical.

and yes, I had to google that...

We rely on the various Councils of the Church and the Fathers of the Church such as Irenaeus, etc in antiquity to have sorted it all out for us...

Well maybe Valentinus got it right. Maybe Marcion got it right. Maybe the Ebionites got it right. Maybe they all got it wrong but there's still something about them that's interesting/useful/important? Maybe it is Irenaeus and Tertullian who should be considered heretics? All these people were human, non of them were angels not by anybody's dogma. All of them were fallible.

 

[krtek a houby]

Jfc

 

[bcuster]

Well maybe Valentinus got it right. Maybe Marcion got it right. Maybe the Ebionites got it right. Maybe they all got it wrong but there's still something about them that's interesting/useful/important? Maybe it is Irenaeus and Tertullian who should be considered heretics? All these people were human, non of them were angels not by anybody's dogma. All of them were fallible.

We accept that the Fathers of the Church were inspired by the Holy Spirit. If you don't accept this, then you're not Catholic