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The Virgin Mary

bcuster said:
Oh, yes humans are so intrinsically kind to each other.,...:hmm:
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They often are with or without religion.
However looking at the World today having strong religious motivations and identities is not stopping some States and organisations from inflicting extreme cruelty on others.
 
bcuster said:
Please interpret this in the context of the thread title/discussion. thank you
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It was a response to the circular Goons' sketch.

In the context of the broader discussion it could be said to illustrate a human tendency to treat something that fits our preconceptions as objective truth, but frame something we don't really like or agree with as just someone's opinion.

I'm not really getting into concepts of God, I just mean belief /opinion / truth more generally. I'd include politics, since that has been mentioned elsewhere.
 
Santino said:
That doesn't resolve why God tells us it's bad. It still has to be for one of the two reasons: 1) because it's already bad or 2) some other reason.
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How are you defining "bad"? You could so define it to make "some other reason" redundant.
 
Humberto said:
There's a bit more to it than that. Other tribes said to be committed to Israel's entire extinction among others. I'm not going to attempt to bat away criticism of the Bible, the Roman Catholic Church and so on until kingdom come/the thread is locked.
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"Other tribes said to be committed to Israel's entire extinction among others."
1. Is there any evidence for this assertion?
2. You have justified genocide, which may make you as bad as. . .
 
andysays said:
It's worth pointing out that all that smiting stuff and most of the other biblical horrors people have mentioned are from the Old Testament, and that a significant and important part of Catholicism (can't speak for other Christians) is that we see it as leaving behind those sort of practices and replacing them with something better.

So Jesus encourages people to turn the other cheek and to love their neighbours and even their enemies as themselves rather than smiting anyone.
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This is an answer some like to give but I'm sorry it is a really poor one.
Both because (1) the New Testament contains plenty to horrible shit - homophobia, misogyny etc and (2) Catholicism, like the vast majority of Christian groups, does not repudiate the Old Testament, sure the OT might be read in light of the New Testament but the RC Church does not dismiss the stories of Sodom, Lot, Abraham, etc, they are still part of its religion.

And that religion hardly turned the other cheek did it? Once it was established the RC Church (like other churches and other religions) was up to its eyes in blood, persecuting Jews, launching crusades, using and being used by different monarchs, gangs etc, murdering heretics. Actions which were not uncommonly promoted on the basis of the Bible.
 
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andysays said:
Fair enough, I'm not suggesting Catholics are unique in believing this, rather I'm trying to clarify what we believe, because many posters on the thread appear to have some serious misconceptions.
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Fair enough back at ya, I think it's interesting actually that despite a widespread conception among let's say 'enlightened liberals', that people professing some kind of religion are basically quite stupid, exclusive and intolerant, IME yer average Jew/Christian/Muslim basically believes that everyone, whether in their gang or not, is a child of the creator with a soul and a moral sense, who if they truly do their best to live a righteous, moral life, will not be punished only for not believing.

Fundamentalists of course really do think that disbelievers will be punished, but most people would agree that fundamentalists actually are quite stupid, exclusive and intolerant.
 
mojo pixy said:
IME yer average Jew/Christian/Muslim basically believes that everyone, whether in their gang or not, is a child of the creator with a soul and a moral sense, who if they truly do their best to live a righteous, moral life, will not be punished only for not believing.
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That is probably true but it directly contradicts the teachings of most churches/religions, which if not teaching that non-believers will be punished at least maintain that non-believers will be excluded from the elect.
And that kind of the issue, I'm very pleased that many religious people depart from the tenets of their religion and insert a more humane, liberal interpretation. But it is rather in the face of their religion. Take Christianity and homosexuality, I'd glad many modern churches have moved to a more enlightened position but it is completely in the face of both their religious text and the practices of the religion for thousands of years.
 
redsquirrel said:
That is probably true but it directly contradicts the teachings of most churches/religions, which if not teaching that non-believers will be punished at least maintain that non-believers will be excluded from the elect.
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In the early days of any religion/sect/cult there are bound to be harsh punishments set out for apostasy or blasphemy or whatever rejection of the revealed truth happens to look like. If there weren't, I expect they'd just die out like the countless sects that have actually died out through history.

Those rules don't get written out because there's always a hard core of fundamentalists who won't let them be written out even when the vast majority of adherents might prefer them to be, and essentially ignore them anyway.
 
mojo pixy said:
Fair enough back at ya, I think it's interesting actually that despite a widespread conception among let's say 'enlightened liberals', that people professing some kind of religion are basically quite stupid, exclusive and intolerant, IME yer average Jew/Christian/Muslim basically believes that everyone, whether in their gang or not, is a child of the creator with a soul and a moral sense, who if they truly do their best to live a righteous, moral life, will not be punished only for not believing.

Fundamentalists of course really do think that disbelievers will be punished, but most people would agree that fundamentalists actually are quite stupid, exclusive and intolerant.
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Evidence?

Jews don't bang on much about the afterlife. Jews are the chosen people, and rabbis actively discourage converts, but they'll accept them if they insist. Some say that all non-Jews have to do in order to make it into the afterlife is to obey the 'Noachide laws', which are pretty simple: basically, don't be a cunt. So what's the point of all the restrictive dietary laws and the rest of it that Jews have to obey, if you can get to heaven by just being a reasonable person? No idea. If you ask a believer, they just shrug and say we don't know much about the afterlife. Maybe Jews get better seats.

Muslims are still fairly committed to people having to acknowledge that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is his last prophet. At least, I can't find any more liberal interpretation that has any acceptance. Can you?

Christians, at least those I've met, are a bit embarrassed about the whole thing. Many say that even if the only way to salvation is through Jesus, this can happen even if the person in question doesn't believe in Jesus. But they're (deliberately) vague, and there's no real explanation as to what this means.

But the question remains: if you don't have to believe in a lot of intrinsically implausible things to be saved, what on earth is the point of discussing unprovable matters at all? Maybe Jesus was the son of god, as the Christians say. Maybe Jesus was just a prophet, but not quite as authoritative as Muhammad, as the Muslims say. Maybe he was just a naughty boy, as the Jews say. The obvious conclusion is: don't waste your time on things there's no evidence for, and just live a good life. So where does religion come into it?
 
Btw I can't give evidence and I'm not talking about doctrine, I'm just talking opinions, perceptions and experience as someone who's discussed this stuff with jews, christians and muslims of all stripes all my life as it's an enduring interest/obsession of mine.
 
mojo pixy said:
Those rules don't get written out because there's always a hard core of fundamentalists who won't let them be written out even when the vast majority of adherents might prefer them to be, and essentially ignore them anyway.
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Is that just it? And if people are just ignoring it away the bits that do not appeal to them then what does religion become but a pick and mix selection of stories that one likes?
I'm not a believer but I do have some sort of admiration, perhaps even envy, for those who really do have faith. But frankly I can't give any credence or respect to the sort of religion which says - oh just ignore those bits you don't like or are uncomfortable with they're just old hat.
 
ouirdeaux said:
Evidence?

Jews don't bang on much about the afterlife. Jews are the chosen people, and rabbis actively discourage converts, but they'll accept them if they insist. Some say that all non-Jews have to do in order to make it into the afterlife is to obey the 'Noachide laws', which are pretty simple: basically, don't be a cunt. So what's the point of all the restrictive dietary laws and the rest of it that Jews have to obey, if you can get to heaven by just being a reasonable person? No idea. If you ask a believer, they just shrug and say we don't know much about the afterlife. Maybe Jews get better seats.

Muslims are still fairly committed to people having to acknowledge that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is his last prophet. At least, I can't find any more liberal interpretation that has any acceptance. Can you?

Christians, at least those I've met, are a bit embarrassed about the whole thing. Many say that even if the only way to salvation is through Jesus, this can happen even if the person in question doesn't believe in Jesus. But they're (deliberately) vague, and there's no real explanation as to what this means.

But the question remains: if you don't have to believe in a lot of intrinsically implausible things to be saved, what on earth is the point of discussing unprovable matters at all? Maybe Jesus was the son of god, as the Christians say. Maybe Jesus was just a prophet, but not quite as authoritative as Muhammad, as the Muslims say. Maybe he was just a naughty boy, as the Jews say. The obvious conclusion is: don't waste your time on things there's no evidence for, and just live a good life. So where does religion come into it?
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There is plenty of evidence for a historical Jesus (and Mary) having lived and done exactly what has been biblically attributed to them
 
redsquirrel said:
Is that just it? And if people are just ignoring it away the bits that do not appeal to them then what does religion become but a pick and mix selection of stories that one likes?
I'm not a believer but I do have some sort of admiration, perhaps even envy, for those who really do have faith. But frankly I can't give any credence or respect to the sort of religion which says - oh just ignore those bits you don't like or are uncomfortable with they're just old hat.
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No religion says that, but people do it anyway because we're unreliable, perverse and irrational creatures. How can anyone expect any set of rules to be 100% kept by 100% of people 100% of the time? No religion expects that, even if it tells its followers to try their best. Allowances get made because people are imperfect.
 
mojo pixy said:
No religion says that, but people do it anyway because we're unreliable, perverse and irrational creatures. How can anyone expect any set of rules to be 100% kept by 100% of people 100% of the time? No religion expects that, even if it tells its followers to try their best. Allowances get made because people are imperfect.
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Not formally but I think there are those that ultimately end up at that point. Those CoE priests that end up calling into question whether god really exists.
There's a difference between making some allowances and throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
And some believers want to get very close to that - ignoring those parts of their faith that they are unconformable with.
 
mojo pixy said:
No religion says that, but people do it anyway because we're unreliable, perverse and irrational creatures. How can anyone expect any set of rules to be 100% kept by 100% of people 100% of the time? No religion expects that, even if it tells its followers to try their best. Allowances get made because people are imperfect.
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I would add that the fragmentation of the Christian faith caused by the Protestant schism and the vastly differing theological philosophies in pRotestantism have confused, angered and stressed the belief system of so many.
 
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My essential opinion, fwiw, is that if religious belief inspires someone to treat their fellow humans better and with more understanding and compassion, then it's a good thing. While if it inspires someone to act cruelly, stupidly, and put empathy aside in order to Be More Right, then it's a bad thing.

Aside from that, I like songs and stories from ancient cultures, and religions (especially the older ones) have lots of those.
 
mojo pixy said:
My essential opinion, fwiw, is that if religious belief inspires someone to treat their fellow humans better and with more understanding and compassion, then it's a good thing. While if it inspires someone act cruelly, stupidly, and put empathy aside in order to Be More Right, then it's a bad thing.

Aside from that, I like songs and stories from ancient cultures, and religions (especially the older ones) have lots of those.
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No one could argue with this. However, you are discounting the benefit to the person who believes that his/her faith can and will bring.
 
andysays said:
No, we don't need a God to have morality, we are all moral beings by nature of our humanity.

Catholics believe that everyone's humanity is created by God, and that non-believers are moral beings as much as believers are.
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Does that square with John 14:6

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
 
Aladdin said:
The biggest and most important messages imparted by Jesus were and are "love your neighbour as yourself and do unto others as you would have done unto you"

Unfortunately nobody in history has lived up to those. Not anyone. Not Christians not Jews.. nobody. But the world is given to detest Jesus. And there are those who try to live up to what we have been baptised to do.

You've pretty much made me not want to be here anymore.

Thanks urban75. For 10 years.
Been a pleasure mostly.
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I hope you don't disappear. I've usually liked what you post and you've always come across as a good egg. Sure, on a forum with a lot of atheists, agnostics and assorted pagan riff raff like myself, you're bound to expect a bit of stick. Just shrug it off Aladdin. You're always welcome here.
 
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