The Virgin Mary

[kabbes]

Murder is bad because human reason tells us that it's bad and because God tells us it's bad.

So in the absence of God, it would still be bad?

 

[Santino]

Murder is bad because human reason tells us that it's bad and because God tells us it's bad.

That doesn't resolve why God tells us it's bad. It still has to be for one of the two reasons: 1) because it's already bad or 2) some other reason.

 

[ouirdeaux]

I doubt that. I'd have to research that point. Do you have a link; oops, never mind. You've given your thoughts, that's all a valid post here need have...

With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death.

St. Thomas Aquinas: Summa Theologica - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

www.ccel.org

 

[andysays]

So in the absence of God, it would still be bad?

Yes, even in the absence of God, or of God telling us that it was a sin, murder would still be bad

This is a quote from a book called "The Catholic Faith Explained", which I was given as part of my preparation for Confirmation, ie initiation into the Catholic church.

"The natural law is "natural" because it is founded on what is good for human reason and because we can know it by our natural faculty of reason. The natural law is valid for all peoples in all societies. Its principles can be understood by reason, even without faith. For example, dishonouring parents, murder, theft, adultery and lying are recognised by practically all human societies as being contrary to what is good for human life. Christians have a duty to uphold the precepts of natural law because these are rational and good in themselves and because they are part of God's will for us, "written" into our shared human nature."

 

[bcuster]

With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death.

St. Thomas Aquinas: Summa Theologica - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

www.ccel.org

The answer is that St Thomas was a product of his time, that his view was not shocking for his time and that members of his family were killed for their Catholic faith
Further, it is largely understood & agree that St Thomas was not referring to Jews or Muslims, but to an extremely reactionary & apocryphal branch of Catholicism that had gained a foothold in Europe at the time

Finally, St Thomas was a flawed human, as all of us are. His Summa is accepted a useful summation and philosophy of Catholic theology, but it is not an infallible work, nor is it Gospel

https://www.firstthings.com/article/1995/12/aquinas-and-the-heretics

 

[ouirdeaux]

an extremely reactionary & apocryphal branch of Catholicism

Apocryphal? This would suggest that they didn't exist.

But you're saying it was OK to put these alleged people to death. Gotcha.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

It's worth pointing out that all that smiting stuff and most of the other biblical horrors people have mentioned are from the Old Testament, and that a significant and important part of Catholicism (can't speak for other Christians) is that we see it as leaving behind those sort of practices and replacing them with something better.

So Jesus encourages people to turn the other cheek and to love their neighbours and even their enemies as themselves rather than smiting anyone.

So God changed?

 

[bcuster]

Apocryphal? This would suggest that they didn't exist.

But you're saying it was OK to put these alleged people to death. Gotcha.

Aquinas said it, not me. Killing heretics is not in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I used the word "apocryphal" incorrectly.

Catharism certainly did exist
Thanks for pointing that out for me...

 

[ouirdeaux]

But they did it.

 

[andysays]

So God changed?

No, God hasn't changed, because God is seen as eternal, but the imperfect way that humans understand God and God's will has changed, between the time of Moses and the time of Jesus, and between the time of Jesus and today.

 

[ouirdeaux]

Also, the church thinks very highly of Aquinas. Schools are named after him, where innocent children like you must once have been are turned into morons incapable of thinking for themselves.

 

[bcuster]

Also, the church thinks very highly of Aquinas. Schools are named after him, where innocent children like you must once have been are turned into morons incapable of thinking for themselves.

Absolutely true. Thomas is worthy of the distinction. Many, many more people, places & things are named after Mary. She IS perfect...
Wasn't that the original thread topic before this descent into anti-catholic bigotry by the heirs of Cromwell...?

 

[andysays]

But they did it.

The fact that some Catholics nearly a thousand years ago did some bad stuff really isn't the "gotcha" you appear to think it is.

The Catholic church is a human institution which has existed for two thousand years, and has done lots of things which we (that's we as Catholics and we as a broader society) now regard as immoral, but so have most human institutions which have existed for that long.

It makes as much sense for you to condemn Catholics today for what Catholics a thousand years ago did or believed as it would do for me to condemn you because of whatever shit your ancestors of a thousands years ago got up to.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

No, God hasn't changed, because God is seen as eternal, but the imperfect way that humans understand God and God's will has changed, between the time of Moses and the time of Jesus, and between the time of Jesus and today.

So the old testament is untrue and can be ignored?

 

[bcuster]

So the old testament is untrue and can be ignored?

The old testament describes events under the Old Covenant. The New testament is a description of events & the teachings of Christ that comprise the New Covenant

The relationship between God and man changed, not God

 

[andysays]

So the old testament is untrue and can be ignored?

No, it shouldn't be ignored, it's an important part of the human story. It provides the context from which Christianity emerged. Loads of stuff in the Gospels is about fulfilling prophecies made in the Old Testament, and lots of it supercedes or goes beyond things in the Old Testament, so without some knowledge of the OT, we can't properly understand the New Testament.

It shouldn't all be read as literal truth, eg Catholics don't necessarily believe that God literally created everything in six days, and whether or not specific stories are seen as literally true, reporting something that happened shouldn't be equated with condoning it.

So for example it's important to recognise that killing your enemies was once seen as acceptable practice, so we can better understand the message of loving your enemy, and the self sacrifice of Jesus can only be fully understood when contrasted with the traditional practice of animal sacrifice.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Shame God couldn't be clear and consise about what he wanted from his creatures, rather than all the confusion caused over the millennia which has led to wars, plight and terrorism.

 

[bcuster]

Shame God couldn't be clear and consise about what he wanted from his creatures, rather than all the confusion caused over the millennia which has led to wars, plight and terrorism.

I can't disagree

 

[Richard46]

So who's going to figure it all out for us? The atheists of U75? Luther? Cromwell? Or the teaching authority of the Church?

Avert your eyes if you must; another authoritative link in direct response to your question:

The Church's Teaching Authority | EWTN

EWTN is a global, Catholic Television, Catholic Radio, and Catholic News Network that provides catholic programming and news coverage from around the world.

www.ewtn.com

from that link; 'Now of course the promise of Christ cannot fail: hence when the Church presents some doctrine as definitive or final, it comes under this protection, it cannot be in error; in other words, it is infallible'.

Part of the problem is that having a religion makes many such people (not all) think that they are part of something infallible.

 

[Dystopiary]

You're hurting the poor thing's little brain with that question.

Ah come on, there's no need to make it personal.

 

[kabbes]

Yes, even in the absence of God, or of God telling us that it was a sin, murder would still be bad

Then we don't need God to have morality.

 

[Aladdin]

Then we don't need God to have morality.

In a world full of immorality thats a fair point.

 

[Dystopiary]

Also, the church thinks very highly of Aquinas. Schools are named after him, where innocent children like you must once have been are turned into morons incapable of thinking for themselves.

This is out of order.

 

[andysays]

Then we don't need God to have morality.

No, we don't need a God to have morality, we are all moral beings by nature of our humanity.

Catholics believe that everyone's humanity is created by God, and that non-believers are moral beings as much as believers are.

 

[Aladdin]

You're hurting the poor thing's little brain with that question.

The biggest and most important messages imparted by Jesus were and are "love your neighbour as yourself and do unto others as you would have done unto you"

Unfortunately nobody in history has lived up to those. Not anyone. Not Christians not Jews.. nobody. But the world is given to detest Jesus. And there are those who try to live up to what we have been baptised to do.

You've pretty much made me not want to be here anymore.

Thanks urban75. For 10 years.
Been a pleasure mostly.

 

[bcuster]

The biggest and most important messages imparted by Jesus were and are "love your neighbour as yourself and do unto others as you would have done unto you"

Unfortunately nobody in history has lived up to those. Not anyone. Not Christians not Jews.. nobody. But the world is given to detest Jesus. And there are those who try to live up to what we have been baptised to do.

You've pretty much made me not want to be here anymore.

Thanks urban75. For 10 years.
Been a pleasure mostly.

I'm asking you publicly to stay

 

[andysays]

The biggest and most important messages imparted by Jesus were and are "love your neighbour as yourself and do unto others as you would have done unto you"

Unfortunately nobody in history has lived up to those. Not anyone. Not Christians not Jews.. nobody. But the world is given to detest Jesus. And there are those who try to live up to what we have been baptised to do.

You've pretty much made me not want to be here anymore.

Thanks urban75. For 10 years.
Been a pleasure mostly.

Try not to let the shit you're getting from some know-nothing weirdo put you off the whole of Urban.

Most people here, even on threads like this which can become unpleasant and acrimonious, are still capable of discussing things in a reasonable manner, even when we strongly disagree with each other.

 

[mojo pixy]

Bluebottle: What time is it Eccles?

Eccles: Err, just a minute. I've got it written down on a piece of paper. A nice man wrote the time down for me this morning.

Bluebottle: Ooooh, then why do you carry it around with you Eccles?

Eccles: Welll, um, if a anybody asks me the time, I can show it to dem.

Bluebottle: Wait a minute Eccles, my good man.

Eccles: What is it fellow?

Bluebottle: It's writted on this bit of paper, what is eight o'clock, is writted.

Eccles: I know that my good fellow. That's right, um, when I asked the fella to write it down, it was eight o'clock.

Bluebottle: Well then. Supposing when somebody asks you the time, it isn't eight o'clock?

Eccles: Well den, I don't show it to 'em.

Bluebottle: Ooohhh.

Eccles: [smacks lips] yeah.

Bluebottle: Well how do you know when it's eight o'clock?

Eccles: I've got it written down on a piece of paper.

Bluebottle: Ohh, I wish I could afford a piece of paper with the time written on.

Eccles: Oohhhh.

Bluebottle: 'Ere Eccles?

Eccles: Yah.

Bluebottle: Let me hold that piece of paper to my ear would you? 'Ere. This piece of paper ain't goin'.

Eccles: What? I've been sold a forgery.

Bluebottle: No wonder it stopped at eight o'clock.

Eccles: Oh dear.

Bluebottle: You should get one of them tings my Grandad's got.

Eccles: Oooohhh.

Bluebottle: His firm give it to him when he retired.

Eccles: Oooohhh.

Bluebottle: It's one of dem tings what it is that wakes you up at eight o'clock, boils the kettul, and pours a cuppa tea.

Eccles: Ohhh yeah. What's it called? Um.

Bluebottle: My Granma.

Eccles: Ohh. Ohh, wait a minute. How does she know when it's eight o'clock.

Bluebottle: She's got it written down on a piece of paper.

There's a nice poem about this idea, less comedy and more reflective but ... yeah


https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/51041/brief-reflection-on-accuracy

By Miroslav Holub

Fish
always accurately know where to move and when,
and likewise
birds have an accurate built-in time sense
and orientation.

Humanity, however,
lacking such instincts resorts to scientific
research. Its nature is illustrated by the following
occurrence.

A certain soldier
had to fire a cannon at six o’clock sharp every evening.
Being a soldier he did so. When his accuracy was
investigated he explained:

I go by
the absolutely accurate chronometer in the window
of the clockmaker down in the city. Every day at seventeen
forty-five I set my watch by it and
climb the hill where my cannon stands ready.
At seventeen fifty-nine precisely I step up to the cannon
and at eighteen hours sharp I fire.

And it was clear
that this method of firing was absolutely accurate.
All that was left was to check that chronometer. So
the clockmaker down in the city was questioned about
his instrument’s accuracy.

Oh, said the clockmaker,
this is one of the most accurate instruments ever. Just imagine,
for many years now a cannon has been fired at six o’clock sharp.
And every day I look at this chronometer
and always it shows exactly six.

Chronometers tick and cannon boom.

 

[ouirdeaux]

It makes as much sense for you to condemn Catholics today for what Catholics a thousand years ago did or believed as it would do for me to condemn you because of whatever shit your ancestors of a thousands years ago got up to.

The difference is that I'm not saying my ancestors were always right.

Catholics are saying that the church is infallible. Except where it isn’t, by some sort of crazy logic.

The church hasn't disavowed Aquinas. On the contrary -- recent popes have praised his sanctity.

 

[bcuster]

There's a nice poem about this idea, less comedy and more reflective but ... yeah

Brief reflection on accuracy

By Miroslav Holub

Fish
always accurately know where to move and when,
and likewise
birds have an accurate built-in time sense
and orientation.

Humanity, however,
lacking such instincts resorts to scientific
research. Its nature is illustrated by the following
occurrence.

A certain soldier
had to fire a cannon at six o’clock sharp every evening.
Being a soldier he did so. When his accuracy was
investigated he explained:

I go by
the absolutely accurate chronometer in the window
of the clockmaker down in the city. Every day at seventeen
forty-five I set my watch by it and
climb the hill where my cannon stands ready.
At seventeen fifty-nine precisely I step up to the cannon
and at eighteen hours sharp I fire.

And it was clear
that this method of firing was absolutely accurate.
All that was left was to check that chronometer. So
the clockmaker down in the city was questioned about
his instrument’s accuracy.

Oh, said the clockmaker,
this is one of the most accurate instruments ever. Just imagine,
for many years now a cannon has been fired at six o’clock sharp.
And every day I look at this chronometer
and always it shows exactly six.

Chronometers tick and cannon boom.

Please interpret this in the context of the thread title/discussion. thank you