The Virgin Mary

[ouirdeaux]

But frankly I can't give any credence or respect to the sort of religion which says - oh just ignore those bits you don't like or are uncomfortable with they're just old hat.

That's pretty much the attitude of people here who are sympathetic to religion, but want to distance themselves from the nastier bits. For example, the Old Testament says that gay men should be put to death. The New Testament, thanks to Paul, added women to the mix, just in case they thought they had a get-out clause.

Modern liberal Christians have to explain this away. They can be very ingenious. Paul was referring to prostitutes. Or to people who weren't gay, but had gay sex, which wasn't being true to their nature, so they weren't really gay. (No, seriously, I've come across this.). Gay people are OK, according to the liberals, as long as they conduct their relationships with integrity (and aren't prostitutes or weird hetero posers) and don't act like cunts. That's what would have been in the Bible, if anyone had bothered to say it.

But it's all rather silly. It's like trying to maintain that Mein Kampf isn't really antisemitic, and actually has some good things to say. Hey, it was just of its time, lots of people had those ideas about the Jews, let's not get bogged down with trivialities, we think differently nowadays.

 

[PTK]

Some points for debate.

Satanism is not a negation of Christianity. It accepts many of the premises of Christianity, such as the existence of God, the existence of Satan, the existence of Heaven and Hell, and Jesus being the Son of God who was crucified and rose from the dead. A Satanist would be happy to employ most of the same arguments for the existence of God that Christians employ.

Richard Dawkins, an atheist, shares the same philosophical position as the theists. He thinks that ideas in themselves are the root of social phenomena, rather than material conditions. He thinks that religious ideas are the cause of such conflicts as the “Troubles” in Ireland and the Israel/Palestine war, not material conditions. Both Dawkins and the theists are idealists, locating social action simply in the adoption “good” or “bad” ideas, with no explanation of how these ideas come to be, how adoption of them becomes widespread, and how they lose support.

 

[ouirdeaux]

He thinks that religious ideas are the cause of such conflicts as the “Troubles” in Ireland and the Israel/Palestine war, not material conditions.

Does he? Where? (Not saying he doesn't, but I have no idea).

Anyway, it's certainly not my view. If religion had never existed, there would have been conflict between different groups, particularly if one group decides to take over land previously occupied by another. Religion is just a way of justifying it, because the Big Kahuna is on your side, and there's no argument with that, is there? But it's hardly necessary.

 

[PTK]

Does he? Where? (Not saying he doesn't, but I have no idea).

Anyway, it's certainly not my view. If religion had never existed, there would have been conflict between different groups, particularly if one group decides to take over land previously occupied by another. Religion is just a way of justifying it, because the Big Kahuna is on your side, and there's no argument with that, is there? But it's hardly necessary.

Dawkins says this in The God Delusion.
Being an atheist has not stopped from being a bit of a bigot at times, too.

 

[bcuster]

No, there isn't.

Or google some links to show that there is.

Google links to "Historical Jesus"? I wouldn't insult your intelligence. There are scores of them...

 

[ouirdeaux]

Don't be so passive-aggressive. I'm happy to insult yours. There's nothing apart from sectarian sources. There are (sparse) references to Christians, and there's Tacitus saying Jesus was crucified, but nothing about Jesus' purported time on earth, let alone Mary's, that would support your argument.

If you have evidence to the contrary, provide it. You can't. Intriguingly, lying isn't one of the sins that the Catholic Church singles out for particular concern; it's not crying out to heaven for vengeance in the manner of sodomy, say. But it's still a sin, isn't it? So you shouldn't be doing it.

 

[Serge Forward]

Google links to "Historical Jesus"? I wouldn't insult your intelligence. There are scores of them...

I'm not sure about that. I understand that historical evidence of Jesus was not from his contemporaries but from people writing several centuries later.... though I may be wrong about that.

 

[bcuster]

Josephus & Tacitus both were contemporaries of Jesus and wrote about him as a real figure of history. Jesus as a fable or not real is considered a fringe view

 

[PTK]

I would add that the fragmentation of the Christian faith caused by the Protestant schism and the vastly differing theological philosophies in pRotestantism have confused, angered and stressed the belief system of so many.

The Roman Catholic Church was not the first church, was it? Other churches can claim to be older.

 

[bcuster]

The Roman Catholic Church was not the first church, was it? Other churches can claim to be older.

The first Christian Church for sure.
As to earlier Churches, it would depend on your definition of "Church"

 

[ouirdeaux]

Josephus & Tacitus both were contemporaries of Jesus and wrote about him as a real figure of history. Jesus as a fable or not real is really a fringe view

You're moving the goalposts again. Where do a couple of disputed passages provide evidence that Jesus and Mary did exactly what tradition says they did? They don't even mention Mary!

 

[ouirdeaux]

How the fuck is someone supposed to remain polite in the face of this shit? It's either dishonesty or insanity.

 

[PTK]

Josephus & Tacitus both were contemporaries of Jesus and wrote about him as a real figure of history. Jesus as a fable or not real is considered a fringe view

Where does Josephus mention Mary?

 

[ouirdeaux]

Or Tacitus, for that matter?

 

[ouirdeaux]

I can hear the sound of frantic googling from here.

 

[bcuster]

How the fuck is someone supposed to remain polite in the face of this shit? It's either dishonesty or insanity.

You haven't remained polite, not in the least. You upset dear Aladdin quite severely and insulted me numerous times.

Your question changed. The Gospels prove the works of Jesus and his Mother. They are as valid as any 2,000 year old source. Josephus & Tactus' writings are accepted by all but the most hard-bitten cynics, eg you..

 

[bcuster]

Or Tacitus, for that matter?

Did I misspell it? Sorry, smarty pants. I had to look it up to refresh my memory

 

[ouirdeaux]

While you're at it, provide the Mary passages. It had nothing to do with misspelling, which you didn't. Why are you gaslighting?

 

[bcuster]

While you're at it, provide the Mary passages. It had nothing to do with misspelling, which you didn't. Why are you gaslighting?

What do you want me to prove about the Blessed Virgin Mary, Queen of Angels> That she is revered and adored in every major faith system on earth?
That She loves us?
That She intercedes on our behalf?
That she will assist us at the hour of our death, merely by asking Her?
That She is kind and wonderful?
That She loves us as Her children?
That She is the Flower of Creation, the most perfect human ever to live?

That She is the Daughter of the Father? Mother of the Son? Spouse of the Holy Spirit?
That She has inspired more beautiful art than any other subject?
That she has been the cause of innumerable miracles, written & attested to by even nonbelievers?

 

[ouirdeaux]

This is what you said:

There is plenty of evidence for a historical Jesus (and Mary) having lived and done exactly what has been biblically attributed to them

And you don't have the integrity to admit you were talking trash, having failed to find anything.

Is lying not a sin in your belief system?

 

[ouirdeaux]

That she is revered and adored in every major faith system on earth?

I mean, what the fuck?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Ok. If you know so much about her

What is her favourite colour?
What would she rather have for breakfast?
Does she love or hate Marmite?
What would be her desert island discs?
What colour eyes does she have?
How tall is she?
Has she got any allergies?
How would she like to be addressed? Mary? Blessed Virgin? Madge?

 

[bcuster]

I mean, what the fuck?

I posted all about that above and was scalded for it. The links remain, above. Please go luck at them, dummy

 

[bcuster]

Ok. If you know so much about her

What is her favourite colour?
What would she rather have for breakfast?
Does she love or hate Marmite?
What would be her desert island discs?
What colour eyes does she have?
How tall is she?
Has she got any allergies?
How would she like to be addressed? Mary? Blessed Virgin? Madge?

I'll ask her all the above if I'm ever given the rare privilege of physically seeing her....
BTW, I suspect her favorite colors are blue and gold...

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I'll ask her all the above if I'm ever given the rare privilege of physically seeing her....
BTW, I suspect her favorite colors are blue and gold... View attachment 444826

So you don't actually know anything about a real person, just dogma?

 

[krtek a houby]

You haven't remained polite, not in the least. You upset dear Aladdin quite severely and insulted me numerous times.

Your question changed. The Gospels prove the works of Jesus and his Mother. They are as valid as any 2,000 year old source. Josephus & Tactus' writings are accepted by all but the most hard-bitten cynics, eg you..

You've used sectarian and disparaging remarks against both Protestants and Catholics.

The Gospels prove nothing. They are echoes of echoes of tales and rumours that did the rounds two millennia ago.

This is not a site where you get to convert others. Just like people won't get to convert you.

 

[bcuster]

So you don't actually know anything about a real person, just dogma?

I know everything I need to know, except the examples of trivial bits in your post, about this very real Person

 

[bcuster]

You've used sectarian and disparaging remarks against both Protestants and Catholics.

The Gospels prove nothing. They are echoes of echoes of tales and rumours that did the rounds two millennia ago.

This is not a site where you get to convert others. Just like people won't get to convert you.

Mostly true

 

[krtek a houby]

All true

Glad you agree that you're a sectarian bigot and that the Gospels prove nothing.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I know everything I need to know, except the examples of trivial bits in your post, about this very real Person

No you don't. You know jack shit. Because even the stories you relentlessly post display a complete ignorance about any actual human personality, or events in a person's life. Their opinions, likes, dislikes, foibles, peculiarities, - all the things which make us specific human individuals - there is none of that. You've fallen in love with a stereotype.