"the UK is finished"

[treelover]

straw men there, KS, life imo though would become nasty brutish and short, there is no green utopia: in the argentinian meltdown, there were indeed factories taken over by workers (documented in Kleins excellent, 'The Take') but the bartering which allowed people to eat and survive was largely undertaken by the middle class and some farmers, the urban poor really struggled and went without.

Imo, the welfare state for its faults, is the best guarantor of a decent and humane society, now it is being dismantled with hardly any response from civil society and the organised left.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Do you know anyone like that?

Well there's me

And I for one would be delighted to have the chance to work hard in a situation where I could see that my work was actually worthwhile. The thing about digging is that, when you've finished, you know you've done something because you've got a big hole in the ground. If I worked in an office somewhere I'd have to wait for an email from head office telling me my productivity, expressed as a percentage, for the last quarter. That's just not as satisfying somehow.

 

[treelover]

We'd be much better off swapping democracy for meritocracy and appointing engineers and scientists to run important things, because they actually know how they work.

ah, Plato....

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well there's me

And I for one would be delighted to have the chance to work hard in a situation where I could see that my work was actually worthwhile. The thing about digging is that, when you've finished, you know you've done something because you've got a big hole in the ground. If I worked in an office somewhere I'd have to wait for an email from head office me my productivity, expressed as a percentage, for the last quarter. That's just not as satisfying somehow.

I thought you were a geneticicicist.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I thought you were a geneticicicist.

And if I had the opportunity to use my geneticistical knowledge for something useful, in this society or any other, then rest assured I would take it. As things stand, all science graduates are needed for in this country is pencil-pushing down at Canary Wharf.

 

[kyser_soze]

Ok. I used to know people like that too. But at least they attempted to start their own work.

I also no longer know anyone like that. We're getting old.

I'll be honest with you, that experience (plus a few others I had experiencing the politics of site/squat living during the early to mid-90s) is one of the reasons I'm so utterly dissillusioned with the left generally, and horribly cynical about future prospects. There were a great many deeply committed and good people I met, but there were just as many buillshitters who talked the talk but were too stoned, gouched or pissed to do any kind of walking; then there were those who were just up for a fight with anyone or thing that represented 'authority'.

It fucking depressed me at the time, and nothing I've seen since has done anything to dispel the knowledge of my earlier experiences.

And I for one would be delighted to have the chance to work hard in a situation where I could see that my work was actually worthwhile. The thing about digging is that, when you've finished, you know you've done something because you've got a big hole in the ground. If I worked in an office somewhere I'd have to wait for an email from head office telling my productivity, expressed as a percentage, for the last quarter. That's just not as satisfying somehow.

There are plenty of jobs that aren't assessed on this basis, you're either unlucky geographically or haven't been applying your imagination enough.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'll be honest with you, that experience (plus a few others I had experiencing the politics of site/squat living during the early to mid-90s) is one of the reasons I'm so utterly dissillusioned with the left generally, and horribly cynical about future prospects. There were a great many deeply committed and good people I met, but there were just as many buillshitters who talked the talk but were too stoned, gouched or pissed to do any kind of walking; then there were those who were just up for a fight with anyone or thing that represented 'authority'.

I understand that. My (fairly brief) time squatting in the mid-90s left a similar impression. Squats attract arseholes, unfortunately.

 

[SpookyFrank]

There are plenty of jobs that aren't assessed on this basis, you're either unlucky geographically or haven't been applying your imagination enough.

Probably a bit of both, although the biggest factor is that having spent the past couple of years squatting, sofa-surfing and working cash-in-hand here and there I don't have what one might call an impressive selection of references. But even if I did, decent science jobs in this country are fought over like the last doughnut in a police station.

 

[kyser_soze]

So it's deffo a sciency job you'd be after? I was thinking of you going to work on the land or summat...

 

[SpookyFrank]

I understand that. My (fairly brief) time squatting in the mid-90s left a similar impression. Squats attract arseholes, unfortunately.

I'd argue you with you, but I abandoned squatting myself once the areshole/decent human being ratio had become hopelessly skewed. But for a while we did really well, taking care of ourselves and helping out lots of local folks with a combined income of roughly fuck all.

 

[SpookyFrank]

So it's deffo a sciency job you'd be after? I was thinking of you going to work on the land or summat...

I'd rather grow food than grow mutant mice, but if I must submit myself to paid emplyoment then yes, I'd rather it was sciency employment. Another problem on that front is that much of the work done in my field is horribly unethical, I studied genetics in the first place mainly so I'd be better able to argue against its more unpleasant applications.

e2a: I must thank you, KS, for showing more interest in my employment-related woes than my parents ever have

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'd argue you with you, but I abandoned squatting myself once the areshole/decent human being ratio had become hopelessly skewed. But for a while we did really well, taking care of ourselves and helping out lots of local folks with a combined income of roughly fuck all.

It seems to be a depressing cycle. Someone breaks a squat and moves in with their mates, intending to live a decent life based on community. Then the wankers turn up on the door and kind of invite themselves in. And soon enough, people are turning up at all times of the day scoring smack and shooting up in the living room.

You need someone slightly mad like my mate Andy in a squat. He chased away a bunch of smack-dealing tossers, running down the street after them with a big bat.

 

[treelover]

KS said
I'll be honest with you, that experience (plus a few others I had experiencing the politics of site/squat living during the early to mid-90s) is one of the reasons I'm so utterly dissillusioned with the left generally, and horribly cynical about future prospects.

Since when have the Uk squatter movement/culture been the 'Left', not my experience at all: they had very little interest in day to day working class issues, civil liberties, abstract anti-capitalism, yes, but inequality in the UK, Boring! The left is much broader than that, KS, the young girl who serves you in Sainsburys may surprise you with her progressive views, etc.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Since when have the Uk squatter movement/culture been the 'Left', not my experience at all, they had very little interest in day to day working class issues, civil liberties, abstract anti-capitailsm, yes, but inequality in the UK, Boring! The left is much broader that that, KS, the young girl who serves you in Sainsburys may surprise you with her progressive views, etc.

A mate's reply to someone selling the Socialist Worker in the street once:

"I'm not a socialist and I don't work. What would I want that for?"

 

[elbows]

You need someone slightly mad like my mate Andy in a squat. He chased away a bunch of smack-dealing tossers, running down the street after them with a big bat.

Well if future communes, squats or whatever become an absolutely essential means of survival, to a lot more people than in the past, then we are likely to see a much broader variety of humans involved in them, the stakes will be higher, and tossers will therefore be dealt with more effectively?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well if future communes, squats or whatever become an absolutely essential means of survival, to a lot more people than in the past, then we are likely to see a much broader variety of humans involved in them, the stakes will be higher, and tossers will therefore be dealt with more effectively?

Yes, this is true.

 

[kyser_soze]

Since when have the Uk squatter movement/culture been the 'Left', not my experience at all, they had very little interest in day to day working class issues, civil liberties, abstract anti-capitailsm, yes, but inequality in the UK, Boring! The left is much broader that that, KS, the young girl who serves you in Sainsburys may surprise you with her progressive views, etc.

Well the folks who were part of the roads and Crystal Palace protests that I met and socialised with were very poltically motivated (and amazingly they weren't all soap dodging aristos ); I was at uni at the time, and had some of the best debates about community support, how to make what the sqauts were doing relevant to the local community (some were 'art spaces' which were opened up to local estate kids to come and paint in for example) - altho there was also a huge amount of wanking going on too!

I think my basic point, something I mentioned on another thread, is that there was very little self-analysis done by these folks; too often one saw ego as the ultimate driving force behind people's political beliefs, the romantic image of themselves 'at the barricades', but less interested in the tedious work of day to day living.

I guess I can summarise with this little maxim:

'The right thing done for the wrong reasons will always cause harm'

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ah, I was thinking more about the brew crew/skagheaded wasters.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Since when have the Uk squatter movement/culture been the 'Left', not my experience at all: they had very little interest in day to day working class issues, civil liberties, abstract anti-capitalism, yes, but inequality in the UK, Boring! The left is much broader than that, KS, the young girl who serves you in Sainsburys may surprise you with her progressive views, etc.

I'd argue that the 'left' is much more detatched from real life issues than the squatter movement. The leftist parties are, in my experience, more concerned with waving their own flag and acquiring more members than anything else, whereas (a minority of) squatters are genuinely trying to demonstrate an alternative to the consumerist lifestyle. And while I agree that the left is a lot broader than the SWP and friends, the focus they place on old-school political stuctures is often counterproductive.

 

[aylee]

He's saying it to manipulate the markets so he'll make a packet, the greedy arse. Sorus mkII

^^^
This.

Send MI6 to take the greedy cock out.

 

[elbows]

The best propaganda is truth, same goes for this bloke, he is capitalising on the situation that already exists, not creating fear out of thin air. Cannot pin all the countries woes on him, though I dont like him and what he stands for.

 

[pk]

It's the US that will feel it harder than us in the UK.

And they all have guns too, LOL...

 

[rhod]

Send MI6 to take the greedy cock out.

Harsh, but fair.

 

[elbows]

It's the US that will feel it harder than us in the UK.

And they all have guns too, LOL...

Im not sure why the USA are supposed to feel it more than us. They do have more to lose, but they are still in a stronger position than us, their currency is the main world reserve currency, etc.

Not that I would like to bet either way, but its quite possible that the UK will be worse off than the USA.

 

[g force]

Agreed...they also have a strong leader, the global currency and shit load of land to build/destroy/turn into a huge solar generator if they want. We're too worried about killing migratory birds with wind turbines!

 

[Dr Jon]

Yup, that sums it up nicely for me.

It reminds me a bit of something Zappa once said:

The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theatre...

[We] like to talk about democracy but, when put to the test, usually find it to be an inconvenience. We have opted instead for an authoritarian system disguised as a democracy. We pay through the nose for an enormous joke-of-a-government, let it push us around and then wonder how all those assholes got in there.

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry

 

[littlebabyjesus]

@ Dr Jon,

There's a lot of truth to the Zappa quote, but there are also examples from the not-so-distant past of real progress through democratic means. The post-WW2 settlement in the UK is an example.

And what limited democracy we do have is vastly preferable to truly authoritarian dictatorships. It's easy to spout off about democracy being a sham, but when you see what the alternative is, you see that democracy is not nothing. Tell a Spaniard that things are no different from Franco's time. Tell a black South African that the vote doesn't matter. Tell a Cuban that freedom of speech is overrated.

 

[Fruitloop]

Was the post-WW2 settlement the outcome of democratic action? I thought it was more to do with the ruling-class filling their pants about the fit, organised and fairly well-armed working class of the day.

 

[gosub]

Originally Posted by mattie
He's saying it to manipulate the markets so he'll make a packet, the greedy arse. Sorus mkII


Actully he was working with Sorus on Black Wednesday


not that he is alone in how he calls the ball


'Reykjavik-on-Thames.'

guess who is in town

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Was the post-WW2 settlement the outcome of democratic action? I thought it was more to do with the ruling-class filling their pants about the fit, organised and fairly well-armed working class of the day.

You think Churchill would have created the NHS? A Labour government was elected on a (by today's standards at least) left-wing platform. They were voted in ahead of Churchill's conservatives in a vote.