The Trial of Lucy Letby

[Thora]

what could possibly motivate a person to do these things?

A feeling of power over someone helpless maybe? Like when bigger kids hurt little kids just because they can.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

what could possibly motivate a person to do these things?

Munchausen syndrome springs to mind. I know we often say killers are mental, but this is a thing, it doesn't excuse the actions in any way and doesn't get you off any more than narcissistic personality does, but may explain it, a bit.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Anyway fuck her and the reasons, she's getting a whole life tariff, so that's the end of it where she's concerned.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Pure evil.

I don't think there's any such thing. There's always a reason for things. Might be a completely crazy reason, but there's something. I don't believe you can explain things by dismissing them as 'evil'.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

That the doctors repeatedly blew the whistle seems quite significant I think

 

[ohmyliver]

A horrible, awful case all round but evidently the jurors ultimately decided there was enough evidence, and clearly considered very carefully.

exactly, she was found 'not guilty' on 2 of the counts, which suggests that the legal requirement of 'beyond reasonable doubt' was taken seriously by the jury.

I regret reading news articles on the case, it's just so grim

 

[RubyToogood]

It slightly made me wonder why the doctors didn't go to the police themselves and bypass management.

 

[bcuster]

Pure evil.

Absolutely. This is objectively evil

 

[Buddy Bradley]

That the doctors repeatedly blew the whistle seems quite significant I think

Heads should roll at that hospital:

A nurse who worked at the hospital told Sky News that when "alarms would go off during the night" there would be a "phrase that people would use".

Lynsey Artell said that colleagues would ask, "I wonder if Lucy's working tonight?"

 

[RainbowTown]

The grief and pain of the parents of those murdered babies must be unimaginable. They will live with that for the rest of their lives. Absolutely awful and heartbreaking for them, and I doubt they will ever to come to terms with it.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Being present at the time and place of a crime isn’t strong evidence. Being present at ALL the crimes makes it somewhat stronger.

 

[Numbers]

Obviously not because I wasn’t there. I’m only going by what I was told.

So, hearsay.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I don't think there's any such thing. There's always a reason for things. Might be a completely crazy reason, but there's something. I don't believe you can explain things by dismissing them as 'evil'.

I agree. It ends up being a circular argument - they did the evil thing because they are an evil person.

I'm not some bleeding heart liberal who wants to find excuses for what people have done. But I think it is important for us as a species to try and figure out what produces these people and their disgusting acts.

 

[savoloysam]

I don't think there's any such thing. There's always a reason for things. Might be a completely crazy reason, but there's something. I don't believe you can explain things by dismissing them as 'evil'.

That's because you are a normal human being with feelings like empathy. Psychopathic killers have no concept of empathy and in fact get a thrill out of hurting people.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

But I think it is important for us as a species to try and figure out what produces these people and their disgusting acts.

Made difficult by the fact female serial killers are such a vanishingly small study group.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Made difficult by the fact female serial killers are such a vanishingly small study group.

For sure. And as one of them (fictionally?) said in one of those Netflix series - the cops might only catch the ones that aren't very good at it.

Still a worthwhile topic of scientific investigation though...

 

[planetgeli]

That's because you are a normal human being with feelings like empathy. Psychopathic killers have no concept of empathy and in fact get a thrill out of hurting people.

Nah. It's coz we're swamped with religious imagery from day one to explain things we don't understand.

 

[Flavour]

Unspeakable deeds. I can't read the details without feeling sick.

moomoo you are an arsehole troll

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Unspeakable deeds. I can't read the details without feeling sick.

moomoo you are an arsehole troll

Not sure the abuse is called for. Letby does appear as the most unlikely of criminals.

 

[danny la rouge]

Yeah, there’s no need for that, Flavour Nobody wanted this to be true.

 

[existentialist]

Munchausen syndrome springs to mind. I know we often say killers are mental, but this is a thing, it doesn't excuse the actions in any way and doesn't get you off any more than narcissistic personality does, but may explain it, a bit.

It's called "facticious disorder" nowadays, presumably because naming disorders after fictitious/legendary characters doesn't add anything to it.

There are a number of factors which can lead to it, but it feels a little simplistic just to write someone who does something like this off as "evil". Something has to happen to someone to make them end up not just committing such acts, but going to the trouble of getting to the point (eg in this case working as a nurse on a paediatric unit) where they can. There have been quite a few cases of this amongst nurses in general, and paediatric nurses.

I completely appreciate why we might want to distance someone who does things like this as far from the rest of us as possible, but surely we would ideally want to prevent it happening in the first place? Sure, some of that would need to be about improving procedures, surveillance, oversight, etc. But would it really be such a bad thing to actually get in amongst the psychology of people who do these things, in the hope that we might be able to make changes to our society in order to reduce the risk of them happening at all?

That is not to excuse what she has done in any way whatsoever. We all have to bear the consequences of the actions we take, whatever the primary motive might have been. But I, for one, would like to learn more about what those primary motives were...

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I think an act can be described as evil but not the perpetrator. People are complex and evil is simplistic biblical language.

 

[savoloysam]

It's called "facticious disorder" nowadays, presumably because naming disorders after fictitious/legendary characters doesn't add anything to it.

There are a number of factors which can lead to it, but it feels a little simplistic just to write someone who does something like this off as "evil". Something has to happen to someone to make them end up not just committing such acts, but going to the trouble of getting to the point (eg in this case working as a nurse on a paediatric unit) where they can. There have been quite a few cases of this amongst nurses in general, and paediatric nurses.

I completely appreciate why we might want to distance someone who does things like this as far from the rest of us as possible, but surely we would ideally want to prevent it happening in the first place? Sure, some of that would need to be about improving procedures, surveillance, oversight, etc. But would it really be such a bad thing to actually get in amongst the psychology of people who do these things, in the hope that we might be able to make changes to our society in order to reduce the risk of them happening at all?

That is not to excuse what she has done in any way whatsoever. We all have to bear the consequences of the actions we take, whatever the primary motive might have been. But I, for one, would like to learn more about what those primary motives were...

Have you seen Mindhunter on Netflix? Based on true events by the FBI to try and do just that.

 

[existentialist]

Heads should roll at that hospital:

I have spoken to quite a few people over the years about whistleblowing culture in the NHS...suffice it to say that you have to be VERY brave indeed to go outside the chain of command - the system has ways of making your life very miserable indeed.

Whatever motivated Letby to do this, she was aided and abetted by a ranks-closing culture of secrecy and denial which pervades many parts of the NHS.

 

[existentialist]

Have you seen Mindhunter on Netflix? Based on true events by the FBI to try and do just that.

I've seen a few programmes like that - but not that one - and I don't tend to find them particularly useful. To get anywhere, I think we have to get behind the sensationalism of the crimes, and take a pretty mundane look at the perpetrator.

I have no expertise in criminal psychopathology, so I couldn't possibly comment on specifics of this case, but - as ElizabethofYork has said - there has to be something going on in the mind of someone like this for them to calculatedly (or apparently so) commit such acts.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

It's called "facticious disorder" nowadays, presumably because naming disorders after fictitious/legendary characters doesn't add anything to it.

There are a number of factors which can lead to it, but it feels a little simplistic just to write someone who does something like this off as "evil". Something has to happen to someone to make them end up not just committing such acts, but going to the trouble of getting to the point (eg in this case working as a nurse on a paediatric unit) where they can. There have been quite a few cases of this amongst nurses in general, and paediatric nurses.

I completely appreciate why we might want to distance someone who does things like this as far from the rest of us as possible, but surely we would ideally want to prevent it happening in the first place? Sure, some of that would need to be about improving procedures, surveillance, oversight, etc. But would it really be such a bad thing to actually get in amongst the psychology of people who do these things, in the hope that we might be able to make changes to our society in order to reduce the risk of them happening at all?

That is not to excuse what she has done in any way whatsoever. We all have to bear the consequences of the actions we take, whatever the primary motive might have been. But I, for one, would like to learn more about what those primary motives were...

A number of reports highlight that this thirty-something woman’s bed was covered in cuddly toys. When she was nicked her mum said to the police that she would take the rap for whatever has happened, apparently did a lot of wailing in court too. Something not quite right going on there, but fucked if I know what.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

A number of reports highlight that this thirty-something woman’s bed was covered in cuddly toys. When she was nicked her mum said to the police that she would take the rap for whatever has happened, apparently did a lot of wailing in court too. Something not quite right going on there, but fucked if I know what.

To be honest, if my kid was guilty of murdering babies I'd probably wail too.

 

[editor]

Seems like there was loads of poor practice in the hospital, an unsafe environment in general and little concrete evidence against Letby specifically so I can understand why it was so hard for the jury to reach a verdict (I have no opinion either way on her guilt).

She's as guilty as fuck.

Hospital bosses ignored months of doctors' warnings about Lucy Letby

Hospital bosses failed to investigate allegations and tried to silence doctors, BBC investigation finds.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[BristolEcho]

She's as guilty as fuck.

Hospital bosses ignored months of doctors' warnings about Lucy Letby

Hospital bosses failed to investigate allegations and tried to silence doctors, BBC investigation finds.

www.bbc.co.uk

Was just about to post this. Those bosses can fuck off.

 

[editor]

Was just about to post this. Those bosses can fuck off.

They should be sacked too.