The Trial of Lucy Letby

[mojo pixy]

After doctors had raised concerns about the possibility of Letby being involved in babies' deaths, hospital managers who dismissed their concerns and forced them to apologise proposed offering her an "observational role" at Alder Hey children's hospital and given support for a master’s degree or advanced nurse training.

(Alder Hey said they have no records of being approached about Letby.)

The managers really need to be held to account.

A Lucy Letby inquiry must answer this: why was she seen as a victim, not a killer? | Gaby Hinsliff

Times article on flies showing how Letby was treated as a victim

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that if the doctors who raised concerns were men (the doctors whose names have been reported all were - Breary, Jayaram, McCormack) then it was probably a total breeze for Letby to promote her narrative among staff and managers that she was being bullied and singled out. She will have been believed by default.

 

[existentialist]

Sorry for Mail link but are handwriting experts kosher or part of the loon fraternity? Seems this is being studied retrospectively rather than criminal profiling.

Lucy Letby's notes show she is a 'narcissist', expert says

According to graphologist Tracey Trussell, Lucy Letby (pictured) was repressing anger, harbouring 'lethal' energy, lacked empathy and had no perspective on her actions.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I'm VERY sceptical of handwriting experts, but the fact that they seem to consider themselves capable of diagnosing narcissistic personality disorder on the basis of someone's handwriting makes me extremely doubtful.

 

[two sheds]

On the basis of someone's handwriting, who's killed six kids, seems fairly straightforward I'm sure I could have done that too.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm VERY sceptical of handwriting experts, but the fact that they seem to consider themselves capable of diagnosing narcissistic personality disorder on the basis of someone's handwriting makes me extremely doubtful.

Especially when aside from graphology qualifications her highest educational attainment is three a levels, psychology and psychiatry not among them

 

[Sue]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that if the doctors who raised concerns were men (the doctors whose names have been reported all were - Breary, Jayaram, McCormack) then it was probably a total breeze for Letby to promote her narrative among staff and managers that she was being bullied and singled out. She will have been believed by default.

In my experience at work (including as a union rep), that's just not true. In fact, more often than not it’s actually been more the other way round.

 

[Pickman's model]

Seems apt; a big bag of bollocks is what graphology amounts to after all.

e2a: these absolute fuckers all have their HQs down private residential streets into which streetview cars will not venture.

Nothing is stopping you from strolling past and taking pictures yourself

 

[mojo pixy]

In my experience at work (including as a union rep), that's just not true. In fact, more often than not it’s actually been more the other way round.

Fair enough, my comment was coloured by my own experience and of course experiences differ.

 

[Sweet FA]

.

 

[Dystopiary]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that if the doctors who raised concerns were men (the doctors whose names have been reported all were - Breary, Jayaram, McCormack) then it was probably a total breeze for Letby to promote her narrative among staff and managers that she was being bullied and singled out. She will have been believed by default.

I get what you're saying, I just don't know. (I'd hope there'd be more women in such positions nowadays and I don't know if there were any doctors defending her.) We can only guess how much of the managers' disbelief was influenced by preconceptions and assumptions re gender roles and maybe other factors such as class and racial stereotypes, how someone looks* etc.

As people have said, the managers were from a nursing background themselves so could be some bias/defensiveness there.

*Most of us are exposed stereotypes of ugly, deformed or scarred "baddies" repeatedly from a very early age and have been for hundreds if not thousands of years. "Goodies" are always handsome or pretty (and of course pretty = innocence). It's bound to affect people's biases, otherwise the trope would've died long ago.

 

[petee]

A thoughtful piece from a forensic psychologist, which sets the parameters somewhat, in that it doesn't say anything definitive.

Was Lucy Letby an unlikely serial killer? To most people, yes – but not psychologists | Marissa Harrison

Forensic profiles aren’t infallible, but science can help challenge our preconceived notions of what a murderer looks like, says psychologist Marissa Harrison

www.theguardian.com

best article I've seen about this.

 

[Aladdin]

best article I've seen about this.

I read that the other day and felt uncomfortable. Partly because its written after the event, as in, after she has been convicted. I just don't believe that a psychologist would have picked her out as a serial killer if they were asked to interview every single nurse in that ward after the first suspicions were raised. She obviously covered up extremely well. Her colleagues (nurses) all liked her. They worked very closely with her. She must have been able to compartmentalise her feelings / worries about getting caught and present a happy "goofy" kind persona.

I do think her parents must have seen something at some stage in her life. But as she was an only child maybe they didnt know anything was out of the ordinary. They seem to have been very protective of her. Why was that? Did something happen to her when she was younger...

It's all very depressing. I cannot fathom how anyone could do what she did. It's unspeakably dreadful.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Not sure I can think of anything worse. Difficult to imagine any person being more vulnerable than a premature baby and the abuse of power in killing them.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Have a listen to the Unheard podcast series about Fred and Rose West. That might change your mind on that point.

Started listening to it. More harrowing with the interviews than simply reading a book.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

I do think her parents must have seen something at some stage in her life. But as she was an only child maybe they didnt know anything was out of the ordinary. They seem to have been very protective of her. Why was that? Did something happen to her when she was younger...

It’s definitely plausible and was what I was initially wondering. But the article made me remember people I’ve known who had idyllic and problem free childhoods/adolescences but then struggled with adult life because it wasn’t so easy/they weren’t so popular or special, and subsequently did shitty things. Obviously none of those people did anything remotely this awful but it did cross my mind.

It's all very depressing. I cannot fathom how anyone could do what she did. It's unspeakably dreadful.

Yep, completely

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I don’t think most parents want their child to be a serial killer or expect their parenting contributed to it.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

I don’t think most parents want their child to be a serial career or expect their parenting contributed to it.

Apart from perhaps in cases of really shitty and sustained abuse I don’t think you can say anyone’s parenting specifically contributed to their child being a serial killer.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Apart from perhaps in cases of really shitty and sustained abuse I don’t think you can say anyone’s parenting specifically contributed to their child being a serial killer.

It’s so unique that I’m completely bamboozled by it. Apart from West as I think his brother was involved.

 

[sleaterkinney]

I wonder if attracting the attention of the married doctor she was in some sort of relationship with was part of it.

 

[kenny g]

I wonder if attracting the attention of the married doctor she was in some sort of relationship with was part of it.

I have wondered whether that was partly why the senior management took her side.

 

[BigMoaner]

As for overseeing; many GPs and others regularly kill their patients and that is tacitly acknowledged. It's at the other end of the patient age-range, but the cancer-ravaged and so on will often have their morphine dose upped to speed things along and end the suffering. Could that be monitored, should it be monitored?

As has been said, it seems the psycho-killer doctor or nurse exists but seems to be so rare as change is not needed in monitoring of healthcare professionals.

Happened with my nan who was 93. "Would you like us to give her some more morphine on top of what she already has" wink wink. Yes please we said. She was in pain, and it felt the kindest things to do. She passed almost instantly afterward.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

Maybe she didn't go into nursing with the intention of killing patients. But I suspect she got a buzz from getting away with it the first time, and it became a kind of habit/addiction/whatever you want to call it.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Maybe she didn't go into nursing with the intention of killing patients. But I suspect she got a buzz from getting away with it the first time, and it became a kind of habit/addiction/whatever you want to call it.

Yes, I also suspect it was unlikely that she went into nursing with the intent to kill. If it was about getting attention and support from her peers then it might have actually started off with genuine deaths and spiralled once she realised she could engineer the responses she wanted

 

[scifisam]

I'm VERY sceptical of handwriting experts, but the fact that they seem to consider themselves capable of diagnosing narcissistic personality disorder on the basis of someone's handwriting makes me extremely doubtful.

The only place handwriting analysis has in psychology (or neurology - obvs not the same, but there can be some overlap in who's treating a person) is in noticing major changes in an individual's handwriting.

TBF I don't think the article you posted is very persuasive either. It admits that Letby fits a few of their criteria (though they included "Christian," and that's just an assumption), but also misses loads of them. If their profile - from the way they describe it (and if there had been more stuff that specifically pointed out someone like Letby, surely the writer would have mentioned it) - had actually been used a starter tool when selecting who to focus on, they'd have missed Letby and included loads of innocent people instead.

 

[Elpenor]

Maybe she didn't go into nursing with the intention of killing patients. But I suspect she got a buzz from getting away with it the first time, and it became a kind of habit/addiction/whatever you want to call it.

At work I’m encouraged to report anything which looks slightly suspicious (eg submitting an expense claim which is not permitted or not coming forward when they’ve clearly been overpaid) as getting away / trying something minor like that can be an indicator that someone is up to more serious naughtiness. Getting away with small things tends to embolden people.

So my armchair speculation is that there could have been a number of minor incidents increasing in seriousness for some time before any killing.

 

[romeo2001]

I read that the other day and felt uncomfortable. Partly because its written after the event, as in, after she has been convicted. I just don't believe that a psychologist would have picked her out as a serial killer if they were asked to interview every single nurse in that ward after the first suspicions were raised. She obviously covered up extremely well. Her colleagues (nurses) all liked her. They worked very closely with her. She must have been able to compartmentalise her feelings / worries about getting caught and present a happy "goofy" kind persona.

I do think her parents must have seen something at some stage in her life. But as she was an only child maybe they didnt know anything was out of the ordinary. They seem to have been very protective of her. Why was that? Did something happen to her when she was younger...

It's all very depressing. I cannot fathom how anyone could do what she did. It's unspeakably dreadful.

I find it it incredibly strange that her parents were so involved in her employment- this can't be normal - appearing at her grievances etc
First thought was they were high up in nhs or SOMEWHERE with power and influence but everything I've read said they were normal working class parents who had never been to university.....

 

[romeo2001]

At work I’m encouraged to report anything which looks slightly suspicious (eg submitting an expense claim which is not permitted or not coming forward when they’ve clearly been overpaid) as getting away / trying something minor like that can be an indicator that someone is up to more serious naughtiness. Getting away with small things tends to embolden people.

So my armchair speculation is that there could have been a number of minor incidents increasing in seriousness for some time before any killing.

Same thought myself - and I'm in the nhs

I think as a broader issue what it means is that there is definitely a god complex that develops with SOME people who have power

In a world where this happens you have to question is this ever addressed through supervision or is is it ignored....

 

[scifisam]

At work I’m encouraged to report anything which looks slightly suspicious (eg submitting an expense claim which is not permitted or not coming forward when they’ve clearly been overpaid) as getting away / trying something minor like that can be an indicator that someone is up to more serious naughtiness. Getting away with small things tends to embolden people.

So my armchair speculation is that there could have been a number of minor incidents increasing in seriousness for some time before any killing.

I think it's probably easier to report someone for something like that, though. Likely not career-ending, might have an explanation, is easy to demonstrate has happened, and is something that is concerning but not a sign of a monster.

Some people did report her all the same - it's not clear why they didn't escalate their concerns. Not clear to me, anyway - I haven't read every article.

 

[bluescreen]

I find it it incredibly strange that her parents were so involved in her employment- this can't be normal - appearing at her grievances etc
First thought was they were high up in nhs or SOMEWHERE with power and influence but everything I've read said they were normal working class parents who had never been to university.....

This struck me too, but then I am old. Now I think of it, parents these days are far more invested in their children's education and future than my generation's was. For example, I'd have been utterly mortified if my parents had wanted to scope out my university or digs, let alone come along to an open day, if they'd even had open days back then. (I'd have told them to back off - I didn't even do the graduation ceremony. )

And she was their only child, and a preemie at that, so maybe they were more invested than the average and maybe she wasn't averse to using her father's powers of persuasion if he'd proved to be effectively persuasive on her side before.

I don't know though.
The whole business is mystifying and tragic. I wonder if she has any insight into her motivation or even acknowledges what she's done.

 

[Elpenor]

Same thought myself - and I'm in the nhs

I think as a broader issue what it means is that there is definitely a god complex that develops with SOME people who have power

In a world where this happens you have to question is this ever addressed through supervision or is is it ignored....

I suppose if you have patronage from someone who has influence / power then you might have a different experience at work compared to someone who doesn’t

 

[Elpenor]

I think it's probably easier to report someone for something like that, though. Likely not career-ending, might have an explanation, is easy to demonstrate has happened, and is something that is concerning but not a sign of a monster.

Some people did report her all the same - it's not clear why they didn't escalate their concerns. Not clear to me, anyway - I haven't read every article.

My mind was thinking that didn’t Shipman begin by stealing / prescribing himself drugs. Different setting I suppose, perhaps it began for Letby by taking home the shift notes?