The Scottish independence referendum polling thread

[DairyQueen]

I think that's really underestimating 80 year old women tbh.

Or based on the fact they buy newspapers and that is where they get their information....?

 

[8ball]

Is it only democratic when you get what you want?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Or based on the fact they buy newspapers and that is where they get their information....?

As opposed to heroic 30-year-old men who get their info from elsewhere and so chose the correct option yesterday?

You're sailing dangerously close to calling all 'no' voters dupes and fools.

 

[DairyQueen]

Is it only democratic when you get what you want?

What a ludicrous thing to say. It is democratic when both sides of the debate get treated with equal respect by those responsible for disseminating information. The fact is no daily newspaper backed a yes vote, the BBC was biased, and the right-wing press claimed - among other things - that WWI would start if Scotland voted yes and we might have a Jacobite king (a wee nod to thee orange order there). That was the Daily Telegraph, a serious right-wing newspaper.

 

[DairyQueen]

As opposed to heroic 30-year-old men who get their info from elsewhere and so chose the correct option yesterday?

You're sailing dangerously close to calling all 'no' voters dupes and fools.

Why pick 30 year-old men? I have not called no voters dupes and fools. You are not close to anything, you are defending a press that panders to Scotland's far right.

 

[gosub]

even if NO had lost I would still have called it the most incredible exercise in democracy I will ever have the privilege to take part in. Thoroughly undemocratic my arse

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Why pick 30 year-old men? I have not called no voters dupes and fools. You are not close to anything, you are defending a press that panders to Scotland's far right.

Why pick 80-year-old women?

 

[DairyQueen]

Why pick over-65s?

You could take it a bit younger, but look at the exit poll from YouGov. That's where this started.

 

[William of Walworth]

William, could not care less of your two cents. We are going to get a rewriting of history from the London-based intelligentsia and I really can't be bothered trying to convince you that this campaign has been thoroughly undemocratic.

By all means patronise and pat me on the back.

If England ever has a vote that matters, you will see how shoddy things really are. But we all know you will never be asked to vote on anything important.

I stand by my point. You were ranting, not analysing anything.

History won't need any rewriting, the figures alone speak for themselves -- this was a heavier defeat for Yes than a lot expected.

You're right though that there'll be some history-rewriting -- and not just from London either

 

[DairyQueen]

even if NO had lost I would still have called it the most incredible exercise in democracy I will ever have the privilege to take part in. Thoroughly undemocratic my arse

I would not, it demonstrated the extent of state power in traditional, print media and increases the liklihood that twitter and facebook will be manipulated for purposes of state control.

 

[Theisticle]

It wos old people wot swung it - except the 52% 18-24 year olds in the Ashcroft poll who voted No. Not so much old v young.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Why pick 30 year-old men? I have not called no voters dupes and fools. You are not close to anything, you are defending a press that panders to Scotland's far right.

What you have done, explicitly, is pick the example of an 80-year-old woman voting 'no' because she has believed the lies in a biased press. Maybe not a fool, but by definition a dupe - one who has been duped.

 

[DairyQueen]

Eh? That makes no sense. For a start 52% shows there is no real majority (error margins at that level of disaggregation).

 

[DairyQueen]

What you have done, explicitly, is pick the example of an 80-year-old woman voting 'no' because she has believed the lies in a biased press. Maybe not a fool, but by definition a dupe - one who has been duped.

Because an 80-year-old is more likely to be female, is more likely to buy a paper and not get information elsewhere (i.e., be computer illiterate).

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Eh? That makes no sense. For a start 52% shows there is no real majority (error margins at that level of disaggregation).

You can't have this both ways. By your reasoning here, there is only really evidence for a majority 'yes' among 16-17s and 25-34s.

 

[DairyQueen]

Yes. and collapsing the categories shows a majority across all young people. (16-34/40).

 

[Theisticle]

Yes, it's all a media conspiracy...

Murdoch likes a winner and could not support Yes because on the biggest issues, they were not convincing enough for Murdoch.

 

[DairyQueen]

Is that a fact Theistcle? Or if the Sun backed yes, and there was a yes vote, you can say his investments in rUK would be safe as chips.

 

[8ball]

What a ludicrous thing to say. It is democratic when both sides of the debate get treated with equal respect by those responsible for disseminating information. The fact is no daily newspaper backed a yes vote, the BBC was biased, and the right-wing press claimed - among other things - that WWI would start if Scotland voted yes and we might have a Jacobite king (a wee nod to thee orange order there). That was the Daily Telegraph, a serious right-wing newspaper.

So if the Yes vote had won you'd refuse to back it since the lack of democracy robbed it of legitimacy? After all, people can't make an informed choice in either direction if the well has been poisoned.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Because an 80-year-old is more likely to be female, is more likely to buy a paper and not get information elsewhere (i.e., be computer illiterate).

So she's ignorant and ill-informed. Unable to see the lies she's being told. And that's why she voted 'no'.

Despite the fact that this age-group, above all others, had made up its mind before the campaign even started?

You're clutching at straws here.

 

[DairyQueen]

So she's ignorant and ill-informed. Unable to see the lies she's being told. And that's why she voted 'no'.

Despite the fact that this age-group, above all others, had made up its mind before the campaign even started?

You're clutching at straws here.

I never said she was ignorant and ill-informed. You inferred that. I said 80 year old women are the most likely of all age groups to be computer illiterate and use traditional media to get their information.

 

[Theisticle]

Old people voting for things I don't like? Must be disgusting readers of the fascist rag the Daily Express. Or worse...The Daily Mail. Why are old people so useless? Vote Yes sheeple.

 

[DairyQueen]

So if the Yes vote had won you'd refuse to back it since the lack of democracy robbed it of legitimacy? After all, people can't make an informed choice in either direction if the well has been poisoned.

I would be happy of course, but I would not subsequently claim the campaign was democratic.

 

[frogwoman]

the guy I spoke to this morning was actually a bit sad about the result, saying it was bitter sweet despite having voted no himself.

I don't think it's at all as straight forward as people are making out. this was the majority of the country voted against it.

 

[DairyQueen]

Old people voting for things I don't like? Must be disgusting readers of the fascist rag the Daily Express. Or worse...The Daily Mail. Why are old people so useless? Vote Yes sheeple.

Never said that. But good joke mate.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I never said she was ignorant and ill-informed. You inferred that. I said 80 year old women are the most likely of all age groups to be computer illiterate and use traditional media to get their information.

Your argument only makes sense if you are saying that she has been duped by the misinformation campaign. Again, you can't have this both ways - either she has been duped or she hasn't.

And all the evidence suggests that this isn't at all what happened anyway. A majority of older people don't want independence, and that's been true for a while. Nothing to do with the campaign.

 

[Combustible]

And, according to Ashcroft's 2000+ post election poll, this is how that panned out - note the 16/17 year olds moving over to YES in large numbers over the last week, previously NO had a lead there - rest, as expected age wise. Note majority labour support (from 2001 at least, would have been interesting to see 2010 voting as well given the split vote phenomenon) for NO:

I'm not sure I would read too much into the numbers for 16-17 year olds, given that it was based on a sample of just 18 people.

 

[DairyQueen]

Your argument only makes sense if you are saying that she has been duped by the misinformation campaign. Again, you can't have this both ways - either she has been duped or she hasn't.

And all the evidence suggests that this isn't at all what happened anyway. A majority of older people don't want independence, and that's been true for a while. Nothing to do with the campaign.

No, you are assuming that someone who is confronted with both sides of an argument will vote yes. What I am saying is that the British establishment also makes that assumption.

 

[butchersapron]

I'm not sure I would read too much into the numbers for 16-17 year olds, given that it was based on a sample of just 18 people.

Fair point.

 

[frogwoman]

Is it only democratic when you get what you want?

to be honest really wouldn't surprise me if there was some vote fraud, especially some of the tales I've heard about labour in Manchester etc.

I don't think this can account for a country wide result though.