The Scottish independence referendum polling thread

[chrissyy2009]

I am so happy Scotland have voted to remain in the UK. I think it was a masterstroke by Labour getting the unionist votes.
As an Englishman I am ecstatic.

England will now, like yourselves fight for a better deal, Wales and Ireland also look like they want what's best for their countries respectfully.

Cameron did exactly what I expected him to do today. Hopefully, England can now look at reducing taxes.

Now that Scotland have voted No, I expect their taxes to go up otherwise there will be an uproar in England.

Scotland nearly became the place to live. I am surprised it wasn't their intention to make it a tax free haven. The investment they could have received.
As for England, we expect a referendum on Europe. The sooner we get out the better.

Cameron I notice, expects that with us giving you control over your taxes the money we allow you to have should soon not be needed because you can raise taxes.

The oil revenue should and will be split proportionally between all of the countries in the UK.

I am made up. The period of austerity could soon be over in England.

With the English now looking to get the same deals they offered Scotland, it should, due to the wealth in England be better for us.

Thanks Scotland. What a great people you are

 

[DairyQueen]

Any country that does what the Daily Mail tells it to is fucked. That should be taken as a given. We'd all be speaking German now if they had their way.

Ah great, world war two quotes. The Nazis got more backing from the British establishment than yes Scotland.

"What a fabby election, can't wait till the General Election. More exciting with Scotland there. A good fair British fight in '15." Please, we are fucking pish. Our country is fucked, our major parties are useless, and our illiterate establishment clings to power through outright coercion and even threats of violence.

 

[William of Walworth]

DairyQueen : Oh I know, I'm no Daily Mail defender. But on the shock value of so-called 'intimidatory' Yes campaigning in the DM and elsewhere, I'm sceptical about its level of impact.

I also think there might be more to the highish level of No voting than just people being scared into voting No by media-fanned fear. A contribution perhaps, but by how much?

 

[butchersapron]

What's the term?

 

[DairyQueen]

chrissyy2009 Thanks for voting no, now pay more taxes or face cuts. Oh yeah, we should leave Europe as well. Oh, and cut austerity as well! Then elected to Westminster!!

I have seen women cry at this result. Read his post. People like him. That's why.

 

[JimW]

...
The period of austerity could soon be over in England...

You're sadly deluded if you think austerity is driven by the tax take.

 

[butchersapron]

It's not a real person.

 

[8ball]

Our country is fucked, our major parties are useless, and our illiterate establishment clings to power through outright coercion even threats of violence.

They're not illiterate, and their means of coercion are more subtle than thumbscrews and punishment beatings.
On this vote specifically, I don't recall the No campaign threatening anyone with violence - there was some definite lairyness by individuals on both sides but BT and the Yes lot had nothing to do with it that I could see.

 

[chrissyy2009]

It's not a real person.

I think you will find I am very real

 

[JimW]

It's not a real person.

True, they did admit to being "made up"

 

[butchersapron]

I think you will find I am very real

I rather think that you'll find that you are not.

 

[butchersapron]

True, they did admit to being "made up"

Hiding in plain view see.

 

[nino_savatte]

Choosing fear over hope. Already, Westminster is thinking it can continue to fuck us all over.

 

[DairyQueen]

They're not illiterate, and their means of coercion are more subtle than thumbscrews and punishment beatings.
On this vote specifically, I don't recall the No campaign threatening anyone with violence - there was some definite lairyness by individuals on both sides but BT and the Yes lot had nothing to do with it that I could see.

I would say there are far less subtle. They don't read. The certainly don't read anything other than each others biographies and political op-eds.

A Labour councilor was arrested for attacking a voter. The far-right attacked all sorts of groups throughout the campaign. It was well-known the far-right was more violent than yes scotland. The Telegraph and Express quietly applauded that and tried to inflame it (Yes Scotland want a Catholic King headlines). They failed and will fail because they do not understand the Orange Order is largely filled with old men that don't do very much.

 

[chrissyy2009]

You're sadly deluded if you think austerity is driven by the tax take.

Of course its not but this is a unique occassion.

once you get control over your taxes you wont need English aid. Cameron almost said so much this morning.

you will have the option to increase taxes.

This will take some of the heat off us. Hopefully we can look into reducing ours.

This would have the knock on effect of austerity being alleviated.

All we need to do now is the same with Wales and Ireland

 

[8ball]

I would say there are far less subtle. They don't read. The certainly don't read anything other than each others biographies and political op-eds.

A Labour councilor was arrested for attacking a voter. The far-right attacked all sorts of groups throughout the campaign. It was well-known the far-right was more violent than yes scotland. The Telegraph and Express quietly applauded that and tried to inflame it (Yes Scotland want a Catholic King headlines). They failed and will fail because they do not understand the Orange Order is largely filled with old men that don't do very much.

When you said the establishment I didn't think you meant some random Labour councilor and the far-right loonsquad.

 

[chrissyy2009]

I rather think that you'll find that you are not.

I don't know what your problem is. I did thank you. You are a very generous people

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I would say there are far less subtle. They don't read. The certainly don't read anything other than each others biographies and political op-eds.

A Labour councilor was arrested for attacking a voter. The far-right attacked all sorts of groups throughout the campaign. It was well-known the far-right was more violent than yes scotland. The Telegraph and Express quietly applauded that and tried to inflame it (Yes Scotland want a Catholic King headlines). They failed and will fail because they do not understand the Orange Order is largely filled with old men that don't do very much.

You're not selling your thesis to me at all. There were ludicrous stories in r/w papers, a large majority of whose readers will already have been 'no' people, and these somehow swung it? Nah.

 

[DairyQueen]

The media did not report on the far-right loonsquad. They did report on people in Yes Scotland, who heckled politicians. Basically, violence from one group is tolerated. Parts of the media actually stoked tensions to get them out on the street (a guy from Northern Ireland claiming it was worse than Ulster). That is pretty unreal.

 

[Theisticle]

The BBC, Daily Mail, Express, Telegraph, everyone colluded against Yes. Conspiracy on par with 9/11.

 

[DairyQueen]

You're not selling your thesis to me at all. There were ludicrous stories in r/w papers, a large majority of whom will already have been 'no' people, and these somehow swung it? Nah.

Oh do fuck off. Do you think that is normal for there to be no pro-independence newspapers and that has no effect? Even Spain have them in Basque Country and Catalonia, and they lock people up for years for being members of political groups.

 

[frogwoman]

can't say I agree with all of this but this might be one insight into why some people voted no: http://drpetermatthews.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/scotland-decides.html

 

[DairyQueen]

The BBC, Daily Mail, Express, Telegraph, everyone colluded against Yes. Conspiracy on par with 9/11.

Yup, the future of politics in Scotland. "You really think there is institutional bias? In Britain? Why don't you go to Russia if you don't like it here..."

 

[butchersapron]

Some points on the voting and turnout itself :

The missing million goes missing

On Thursday, I spent the afternoon in Craigmillar, a poor area of Edinburgh. I watched a bagpiper lead a crowd of working class Scots from estate to polling booth, flames firing from his pipes. It was a moving yet ramshackle scene. Morale was high. Hope was in the air, along with the smell of petroleum. And yet when the group arrived at the polling station very few of the marchers actually went in to vote.*

Craigmillar. https://t.co/j4tVzvweaV

— John McDermott (@johnpmcdermott) September 18, 2014

Earlier, I spent the morning in Blackhall, a quiet middle class area of north Edinburgh. Voters, many of them elderly, quietly shuffled in and out. Voters.

This would need to be flushed out with actual figures and i'm sure it be challenged/confirmed over the next few days. Note, i'm not saying what the author suggestshappened actually is the case

 

[DairyQueen]

can't say I agree with all of this but this might be one insight into why some people voted no: http://drpetermatthews.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/scotland-decides.html

Finished with this...

And if you are a Yes supporter and you’re reading this spitting tacks, thinking “I’m not a nationalist”, “how dare he tar me with this brush” don’t bother commenting. I won’t respond as you’re just proving my argument. Firstly, go to bed, then step back, and then set to work making the UK better.

... sums up the article for me... you'd be lucky to have such a great Lecturer... would learn more from a goat.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Oh do fuck off. Do you think that is normal for there to be no pro-independence newspapers and that has no effect? Even Spain have them in Basque Country and Catalonia, and they lock people up for years for being members of political groups.

I think most newspapers north and south of the border have a heavy r/w bias. I think that has an effect, but not as large an effect as many suppose.

 

[William of Walworth]

frogwoman : Yes there's some good analysis included in that I reckon. I disagree with some of it too, but he's having a good attempt at insight.

 

[Theisticle]

Yet journalists on the ground suggest that not all the abuse is due to an editorial line or position. Several reporters say they feel the abuse was directed not at anything they had written or said but simply who they worked for. They, or their London-based employers, are being called scum by people who aren’t able to quote the view of this week’s leader column.

That’s not to say that some of the most vitriolic opinion hasn’t been anti-SNP, whether it’s Melanie Reid in the Times saying the “selfish Scots don’t know how lucky they are,” or the Telegraph column comparing Salmond to a dictator. Focusing on vocal nationalists ignores the fact that there has been mistrust and abuse on both sides. Indeed, the only journalist to actually file a complaint to the police so far is a blogger who wrote in favour of the yes campaign online, according to the NUJ.

Paul Holleran, the NUJ’s Scottish regional organiser, says “abuse and intolerance” has been in evidence across the political spectrum. “Robust debate is fine,” he adds. “Pointing out when journalists get their facts wrong is expected and welcomed. But NUJ members believe in a free press, a fair media, with journalists allowed to do their jobs free of intimidation.”

Monbiot argued in his Guardian column “How the media shafted the people of Scotland” that the fact that just one paper, the Sunday Herald, is backing the yes campaign underlines the fact that the media is out of touch, or rather “detached and complacent”.

This is denied by Raymond Boyle, professor of communications at Glasgow University’s Centre for Cultural Policy Research, who says the media have run opinion pieces from both sides despite finally coming down (often marginally) on the side of no.

While all the nationals’ leader writers may have backed the union, several papers, including the Guardian, have published opinion from both sides and attempted to report from across the national divide.

It’s too simplistic to look at the decline in regional newspaper sales for the whole answer during a heated referendum debate but it seems as good a time as any to check how bad things are. There are more than 370 paid-for weekly newspapers in the UK but most now opt to be audited only once a year, according to Press Gazette. More than 100 have withdrawn from ABC auditing altogether over the last year. Dailies are doing just as badly, down 13.5 % in the half year.

Apart from the success of the one local paper that not only turned into a freesheet but is based, of course, in London the only regional daily/Sunday to grow sales year on year was the Sunday Herald, up 1% year on year to an average of 25,125 copies a week. The Sunday Herald became the first Scottish newspaper to back the yes campaign at the beginning of May.

Yet Boyle points to the importance of political bloggers such as Ian Macwhirter and Joyce Macmillan for enhancing debate over the past two years and says that “media has historically been a relatively easy scapegoat” when polls get closer.

It is perhaps ironic that the most vocal signs of alienation from a London-based media should come from the part of the UK with the most developed “national” outlets of its own, yet the evidence suggests that appearing to be different from London-dominated rivals can only be an advantage.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/sep/17/scottish-independence-media-intimidation-bbc?CMP=twt_gu

 

[William of Walworth]

... sums up the article for me... you'd be lucky to have such a great Lecturer... would learn more from a goat.

So is that what you're doing? Seizing on the bit you dislike most about that blog and ignoring all the rest?

 

[8ball]

The BBC, Daily Mail, Express, Telegraph, everyone colluded against Yes. Conspiracy on par with 9/11.

Holographic polling booths - that's probably how they dunnit.