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The Nazis - left wing or right wing?

The part that depresses me about pbman is that he seems entirely serious. He certainly doesn't act like a troll, he's a nice enough guy until he starts spouting vile, anti-semitic shite out of the blue. The idea that ideas like the ones he has expressed on this thread have any kind of currency in the US really frightens me :eek:
 
It is of course true that Jews were disproprtionally represented among prominent Communists of the early twentieth-century. It is equally true that they were disproportionally represented among prominent capitalists. Hitler made much of this paradox, there is an infamous speech of his that begins: "There were two brothers, Isadore was a Communist and Moische was a capitalist." In "On the Jewish Question," Marx argues that capitalism will bring a universal secularization that will enable Jews to participate fully in civil society and thus, as he puts it, "make the Jew impossible." This isn't as anti-semitic as it might sound, since Marx also thought "the Christian" was destined to become impossible. But this process led many eastern-european peasants (from one of whom I'll bet pbman is recently descended) to consider themselves oppressed simultaneously by capitalists and Communists, and they identified the common element in these tendencies as a Jewish predominance.

Anyway, pbman's comments were indeed worthy of banning. But I'd still be sorry to see him go. I can tell you that he *does* represent a large body of opinion in the USA, and is surely worth listening to for that reason alone. As Jezza said, its not like he's looking for converts here. What harm can he do?
 
phildwyer said:
In "On the Jewish Question," Marx argues that capitalism will bring a universal secularization that will enable Jews to participate fully in civil society and thus, as he puts it, "make the Jew impossible." This isn't as anti-semitic as it might sound, since Marx also thought "the Christian" was destined to become impossible.
Stop with the commie spin :mad:
 
phildwyer said:
Anyway, pbman's comments were indeed worthy of banning. But I'd still be sorry to see him go. I can tell you that he *does* represent a large body of opinion in the USA, and is surely worth listening to for that reason alone. As Jezza said, its not like he's looking for converts here. What harm can he do?

"What harm can he do"? Jesus wept!

He may not be looking for converts as you put it but does that necessarily make him 'harmless'? I don't think so. Why would you be sorry to see him go? I think he should have been banned long ago. He poisons every thread he's on and if he isn't poisoning it, he derails them with mindless nonsense.

I eagerly await your reply.
 
stand by, various of you, for a 'progress report' this lunchtime. check yer boxes.
will have to be tomorrow. sorry chaps - torturing innocent li'l techies takes (temporary precedent).
It's also worth noting pbman's earlier derailing of this thread effectively precluded any serious analysis of whether AH was 'left' or 'right'. He himself derailed it off into talk about 'commie jews' rather than give ANY serious reasons why the Nazis were 'left-wing'
 
phildwyer said:
Anyway, pbman's comments were indeed worthy of banning. But I'd still be sorry to see him go. I can tell you that he *does* represent a large body of opinion in the USA, and is surely worth listening to for that reason alone. As Jezza said, its not like he's looking for converts here. What harm can he do?
what he does is the equivalent of the 'midfield hacker'. he can't play himself, but his disruptive, obnoxious and thoroughly poisonous behaviour can interrupt, disrupt and derail the process of debate which others are attempting to carry on with - which, I think, is one of his aims.
banning is always a last resort - the free-speech rights of one's opponents are just as important of one's own. However, anybody else who'd said what he'd said on this thread would be at least temp-banned.
agree with you that he represents a fairly sizable body of opinion over there, but I don't think that many are as whacko as him.
 
Red Jezza said:
agree with you that he represents a fairly sizable body of opinion over there, but I don't think that many are as whacko as him.


His theories aren't anything new though. I've met NRa supporting, lifetime republicans who would consider it appauling that we copuld even consider than this sort of shite was reprentative of American, or republican thought. His sort are an embarassment to them.

YOu're right about the disruption thing though. When he begins to loose an arguement, he either changes the subject or otherise posts something outrageous so epople tell him to fuck off. so he can claim to be the martyr, the aggreived party, victim of insults and he is then defended by certain people.

One of their major claims is that we wouldn't say things like that to his face, well, I think many people hold back here what they would say to the face of someone who walked up to them spouting this sort of vile shite. I would ask these people to hopnestly step back and think of what a normal reaction would be to someone who sat down at the same tabble ion their local and started telling them that the holacaust was justifyable because the jews were all commies.
 
toggle said:
His theories aren't anything new though. I've met NRa supporting, lifetime republicans who would consider it appauling that we copuld even consider than this sort of shite was reprentative of American, or republican thought. His sort are an embarassment to them.
As you say, what he spouts isn't new, it's been around for 60 years. While I agree that many people with the same party alliegance as pbman would be horrified by the views he has expressed, it's a sad fact that the US and the former Soviet Union are the two areas where such views still have most currency
YOu're right about the disruption thing though. When he begins to loose an arguement, he either changes the subject or otherise posts something outrageous so epople tell him to fuck off. so he can claim to be the martyr, the aggreived party, victim of insults and he is then defended by certain people.
His constant introduction of irrelevancies IS extremely annoying, but pretty much of a piece with his use of stock rightist catchphrases and buzzwords.
One of their major claims is that we wouldn't say things like that to his face, well, I think many people hold back here what they would say to the face of someone who walked up to them spouting this sort of vile shite. I would ask these people to hopnestly step back and think of what a normal reaction would be to someone who sat down at the same tabble ion their local and started telling them that the holacaust was justifyable because the jews were all commies.
The last time I let anyone get away with that sort of bollocks was when I was a teen. My reaction since then has always been the same: reason first, and if that doesn't work then force if the person(s) won't desist.
 
I like having pb around, even though his obstinace drives me up the wall. But I think in this case he may have gone too far. I'm sure people have been banned for less. If there was any sensible attempt on his part to quaify what he says there could at least be debate, I prefer to engage than ignore. However, even if he does represent a large body of opinion in the US, it is one hidden behind a brick wall.
 
nino_savatte said:
"What harm can he do"? Jesus wept!

He may not be looking for converts as you put it but does that necessarily make him 'harmless'? I don't think so. Why would you be sorry to see him go? I think he should have been banned long ago. He poisons every thread he's on and if he isn't poisoning it, he derails them with mindless nonsense.

I eagerly await your reply.

Well, he gets *you* riled up pretty effectively--always a fine spectacle-- and is worth the price of admission for that alone. As for what harm can he do here: none. Surely it is obvious that he merely strengthens people's already strong aversion to the views he espouses? It is very important to understand how, when and why people who hold such views came to hold them, and to comprehend the rationale they find for them. I regularly listen to right-wing radio chat shows in the USA for the same reason. Know your enemy.
 
phildwyer said:
Well, he gets *you* riled up pretty effectively--always a fine spectacle-- and is worth the price of admission for that alone.
How very mature of you.
As for what harm can he do here: none. Surely it is obvious that he merely strengthens people's already strong aversion to the views he espouses? It is very important to understand how, when and why people who hold such views came to hold them, and to comprehend the rationale they find for them. I regularly listen to right-wing radio chat shows in the USA for the same reason. Know your enemy.
And if you already know your enemy?
 
phildwyer said:
Well, he gets *you* riled up pretty effectively--always a fine spectacle--


So you get enjoyment out of seeing people upset by the ravings of neo nazis?

What an unpleasent attitude.
 
phildwyer said:
Well, he gets *you* riled up pretty effectively--always a fine spectacle-- and is worth the price of admission for that alone. As for what harm can he do here: none. Surely it is obvious that he merely strengthens people's already strong aversion to the views he espouses? It is very important to understand how, when and why people who hold such views came to hold them, and to comprehend the rationale they find for them. I regularly listen to right-wing radio chat shows in the USA for the same reason. Know your enemy.

You really are quite a prick, aren't you? I wouldn't mind but you are often the subject of spectacle yourself. It may surprise you to learn this, but many posters on Urban regard you as something of a joke - a waffling, self-obsessed joke.

So here you are, waffling about pbman's 'innocuousness'...but only because it gives you something to argue about; a vehicle to parade your enormous intellectual ego.

Pbman doesn't get me "riled up" at all. On this thread, he is completely out of order. If anything, I deal with peebs in pretty much the same way I deal with you: I take the piss. :p

I know my enemy, so you needn't lecture me on that score. I've got you pretty well sussed. :p
 
phildwyer said:
As for what harm can he do here: none.
missing the point. A) his tactics - destructive and disruptive, and meant to strangle debate - are unfair. As such, they constitute an abuse of the BB. he is not here to debate - he is here to propagandise.
B) He does succeed in stopping and/or derailing any sort of progressive debating narrative, time and time again. again, this is unfair on other posters - and it is, assuredly, his aim.
Surely it is obvious that he merely strengthens people's already strong aversion to the views he espouses?
they probably can't be strengthened that much more, in the minds of reasonable people.
It is very important to understand how, when and why people who hold such views came to hold them, and to comprehend the rationale they find for them. I regularly listen to right-wing radio chat shows in the USA for the same reason. Know your enemy.
you won't get that from any future pbman postings, simply becuas ehe does not advance any fact-based, rational argument. Ever.
a light needs to be shone on the subject of how mainstream US right-wing views come about, i'd agree.
but you certainly won't gain from shining that light on - intellectually speaking - a black hole.
 
Exactly. I have never known peebs to debate anything nor have I ever witnessed him posting anything other than propaganda. OI don't want to sound like a conspiraloon but he often deploys what appear to be classic psy-ops tricks: such as the constant and deliberate misspelling of the word "socialist". I wouldn't suggest that he is actively working on behalf of the USG, but the cult-like worship of the Leadership and "America's power for good in the world" and his propagandising/proselytising of neo con dogma; and the dissemination of planted stories (JC2 is good at this) is designed to stifle proper discussion - particularly, as in the case of the planted story, it happens to focus on a persecuted minority.

Low blood sugar...I need food.
 
Red Jezza said:
they probably can't be strengthened that much more, in the minds of reasonable people.

Aggreed. i don't think PBman spouting about jewish complicity in the holacaust here is going to make people here change an opinion about the Nazis. If i want to know about people who spout that sort of shite, i know where to find them. I don't ned them about in a place like this.
 
The nazis were obviously right-wing, being for a powerful state run and owned by big business exploiters and against the producers. The individual was despised - the nation was all. Conquest and subjugation of 'inferior' nations and races they justified, so they were imperialist and racist as well.

Left wingers support the exploited producers against exploiting big business and their lapdogs in government. They envision change towards a better, freer more creative adventurous and productive society, not a return to the past or the dullness of contemporary class-ridden bourgeois mediocrity .
 
THe cunt has been prolifficlaly and deliberately posting shite which he absolutely knows is untrue ever since he slithered onto these boards.
He is not here to debate or to inform or to argue and never has been, he is here to didsrupt and deliberately muddy waters and subvert debate with missinformation on behalf of his nasty political sect.

He has consistantly acted as an ardent apologist for torture and mass murder if carried out by the US and its fellow travellers - not through honest or misguided sceptisicm - but through calculated missinformation and deliberate smeering of the victims. He acts as a deliberate propagandist - quite possibly in concert with others (he can whistle up a dodgey interent link for every occasion - I suspect not through his own efforts). Somehow he has managed to stay just within the rules and explioted his status as a highposting, long serving regular to get away with stuff that most newbies would be banned for immediately.

His postings on this thread are quite something else - and as he has shown no signs of retraction.
Maybe he thought he was just posting up the latest freeper spam just as he has thousands of time before - not aware of just how vile it is becasue he never questions what spews from the shit stained orifice of 'fuckheadsfordubya.com'. or wherever he gets his information from.

Maybe he is, and has always been some neo-nazi crank like his former U75 buddy Diesel (good old boy right winger full of 'tounge in cheek' windups for lefties - now serving time in prison in the US for being a murderous, white supremicist gun nut).

No matter really - those comments deserve an instant ban and I will not miss the poisonous little shit in the slightist.
 
nino_savatte said:
Exactly. I have never known peebs to debate anything nor have I ever witnessed him posting anything other than propaganda. OI don't want to sound like a conspiraloon but he often deploys what appear to be classic psy-ops tricks: such as the constant and deliberate misspelling of the word "socialist". I wouldn't suggest that he is actively working on behalf of the USG, but the cult-like worship of the Leadership and "America's power for good in the world" and his propagandising/proselytising of neo con dogma; and the dissemination of planted stories (JC2 is good at this) is designed to stifle proper discussion - particularly, as in the case of the planted story, it happens to focus on a persecuted minority.

You, Sir, are a parnoid nutter at the best of times. But your contention that pbman is deploying "psy-ops tricks" when he misspells the word "socialist" is the most eloquent example yet of your insanity.
 
ViolentPanda said:
And if you already know your enemy?

I don't think people here do. How many U-75 posters have ever met a poor white Christian Republican from Oklahoma? They should.
 
phildwyer said:
You, Sir, are a parnoid nutter at the best of times. But your contention that pbman is deploying "psy-ops tricks" when he misspells the word "socialist" is the most eloquent example yet of your insanity.

And you are a vain waste of space whose arrognace is only exceeded is by your propensity for pointless waffle.

Are you quite finished, Mr Windbag?
 
phildwyer said:
I don't think people here do. How many U-75 posters have ever met a poor white Christian Republican from Oklahoma? They should.

Oh and I suppose you have - being the all great, all knowing phildwyer. Does it really matter if any of us have actually met a "poor white Christian Republican from Oklahoma"? But here you presume that pbman is "poor", or are you saying that being Oklahoman predisposes one to poverty?

You're a sick, sick man.
 
phildwyer said:
I don't think people here do. How many U-75 posters have ever met a poor white Christian Republican from Oklahoma? They should.
errr...I've met po' white rightwingers from the Deep south 9plenty of 'em) and it's same diff. but why would I need to? how would it help me? :confused:
and how varied and diverse is the total number of people, that someone like pbman has met.
Not very, if at all, I'd wager.
 
nino_savatte said:
Oh and I suppose you have - being the all great, all knowing phildwyer. Does it really matter if any of us have actually met a "poor white Christian Republican from Oklahoma"? But here you presume that pbman is "poor", or are you saying that being Oklahoman predisposes one to poverty?

Once again, you reveal your utter lack of attention to the subject on which you pontificate so eagerly. Pbman has *said* he is poor more than once. He has also revealed a good deal about his thought-processes, often inadvertantly, and the more observant among us have learned from that. Unfortunately, you are not among them. You *claim* to be an American yourself, but if that is true it seems strange to me that you have never met anyone like pbman before. But maybe you just weren't paying attention again?
 
phildwyer said:
I don't think people here do. How many U-75 posters have ever met a poor white Christian Republican from Oklahoma? They should.
1) Do your research, he's not from Oklahoma, he lives there. He was born and raised in Michigan.
Kind of ruins your "po' white Christian Okie" stereotype, doesn't it?

2) Probably quite a few more people are acquainted with such persons than you expect. After all, we don't all have to be jetsetting cosmopolitans to have foreign friends, acquaintances and colleagues.

3) Who are you to dictate what people should or shouldn't do, unless you believe you're better than "the common herd", that is?
 
phildwyer said:
Once again, you reveal your utter lack of attention to the subject on which you pontificate so eagerly. Pbman has *said* he is poor more than once.
Actually, he has stated on more than one occasion that he is paid well enough to work only the hours he wishes to, and spend as much time and money as he wants on his pastimes and interests.
Given that he collects high-quality firearms, I'm intrigued as to exactly where he has stated that he is "poor".
...the more observant among us have learned from that.
Self-praise is no recommendation, especially not when so many people on this board are familiar with the size of your ego.
 
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