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The Ashes 2019

He did bowl well, but the idea that the Australians were trying to injure him is, quite frankly, stupid.

When you bowl fast, sharp rising deliveries at someone's head you don't care if you injure him. It's not cricket old chap to admit this but this is exactly what you're doing in the euphemism of intimidation.

I know. I used to do it.

At least when Clarke sledged to Anderson "get ready for a broken bloody arm" it was a moment of honesty on his part.
 
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The commentators made the point, on numerous occasions, that England also planned to bowl if they won the toss. .
If I'd been Root today, I'd have said I'd have bowled first after losing the toss even if I wasn't going to. England's batsmen are under enough pressure as it is - saying you'd have batted would just have put them under even more.

It's potentially hubris to bowl first in reasonable batting conditions because you're basically saying you don't think the opposition's batting is up to it. It's the sort of thing the West Indies used to do back in the day. Fine when it comes off. Looks pretty terrible when it doesn't. Still too early to say whether it did come off for Aus today.
 
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He did bowl well, but the idea that the Australians were trying to injure him is, quite frankly, stupid.
I agree with planetgeli on this. There was no particular need in the game situation to bounce Archer, at least not in the way they did it. But such tactics can backfire. I hope that does on them tomorrow.

I actually don't have a massive problem with it now that bastmen wear so much protection. In years gone by it wasn't on to bounce tailenders like that. Today, let's not pretend any team is above doing it. They stopped for a bit when Phil Hughes died, but then they got over it and started again.
 
When you bowl fast, sharp rising deliveries at someone's head you don't care if you injure him. It's not cricket old chap to admit this but this is exactly what you're doing in the euphemism of intimidation.
No, you recognize that there's the possibility of injury, but also acknowledge that he's a fucking professional athlete who should have the skills and reflexes to get out of the way. It's part of the risk of professional sport. You'll see me say exactly the same thing if the English bowlers send short deliveries at the Australian tail end tomorrow.

I actually don't have a massive problem with it now that bastmen wear so much protection. In years gone by it wasn't on to bounce tailenders like that. Today, let's not pretend any team is above doing it. They stopped for a bit when Phil Hughes died, but then they got over it and started again.
This is the main reason I made my argument. It's now part of the game. With all the whining in this thread, you'd think the Australians are the only team who's ever sent a short ball at a tail-end batsman.
If I'd been Root today, I'd have said I'd have bowled first after losing the toss even if I wasn't going to. England's batsmen are under enough pressure as it is - saying you'd have batted would just have put them under even more.
You know, if some of the best, international-level sports figures in the world can't deal with the pressure of telling the truth about what you would have done if you won the toss, it seems to me that maybe Aussie hubris is not the first thing you should be worried about.
It's potentially hubris to bowl first in reasonable batting conditions because you're basically saying you don't think the opposition's batting is up to it. It's the sort of thing the West Indies used to do back in the day. Fine when it comes off. Looks pretty terrible when it doesn't. Still too early to say whether it did come off for Aus today.
It's "potentially hubris"? Jesus, that's a high bar you've got there. It doesn't just depend on what the batting conditions are today, but what you think they might be like over the next few days. Why not simply go with the most likely and most reasonable interpretation: that the Australian captain chose to bowl because, in weighing up all the considerations, he thought that this decision would give his team the best chance to win (or perhaps draw) this test? As David Gower said, he was probably thinking that the best chance of winning a match in conditions like this, where you've already lost one day of play and where more rain is in the forecast, is to hope that you can bowl the other guys out for a modest total, then rack up a big score, and then take advantage of the fourth day pitch to see if you can bowl them out again.

I've been plenty critical of the Australian team over the years. I got pretty sick of them back in the late '90s and early '00s, when they had a bad reputation for sledging and plenty of them acted like arseholes on a regular basis. It got to the stage where I was hoping my own national team would lose, just to bring them down a peg or two. I was also really pissed off at their cheating in South Africa last year, and was quite happy with the long suspensions handed down to Smith and the others. But it seems like plenty of people in this thread are just looking for bullshit excuses to rag on them. I came for a fun discussion about cricket, but if this whole thread is just going to be complaining about England's shit batsmen and about Australia's poor sportsmanship, I'm not sure it's worth the conversation.
 
Well I did say it was either a confident move or hubris. It increases their chance of winning perhaps, but if so, only at the cost of increasing their chance of losing, and in a series where they're ahead. tbh most tests in England don't reach the final day anyway so losing one day doesn't change things enormously, but given the weather forecast for the match and the way it can hoop around at Lords when it's overcast, I didn't see it as smart to bowl when the sun was out. Honestly, I don't think Australia are good enough to think like the West Indies of the 80s, who basically just didn't think England were up to facing them.

Aus bowled well today, but England didn't bat well. What are we supposed to do, pretend they batted ok and the Aussies were just unplayable? They didn't and they weren't. The Hazlewood dismissal of Roy is a good example. It was a regulation short of a length ball outside off in the second over of the day that a proper test opener leaves alone. You would never, ever see Alastair Cook get out like that. Roy isn't a proper test opener so he poked at it. If anything I'd have preferred it if he'd had a wild slog at it. That would at least have had a purpose.

It's not whining about bad sportsmanship to say that. It's just a comment on the decision and a comment on the quality of England's batting. What are we supposed to say?

There's another reason Root might have lied about the toss. Aus bowl first, showing that they don't rate England's batting. Well we don't rate your batting either is the message if he says they would have bowled too. If he did lie about it, that was the smart thing to do.

There's another way of looking at the decision to bowl as well, which is that Aus are a little bit scared of what Archer might do to them. Bowling first can be a sign of weakness. In this case, I don't think it was that so much, but I do think it was a bad decision, whoever wins this match.
 
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Aus bowled well today, but England didn't bat well. What are we supposed to do, pretend they batted ok and the Aussies were just unplayable? They didn't and they weren't. The Hazlewood dismissal of Roy is a good example. It was a regulation short of a length ball outside off in the second over of the day that a proper test opener leaves alone. You would never, ever see Alastair Cook get out like that. Roy isn't a proper test opener so he poked at it. If anything I'd have preferred it if he'd had a wild slog at it. That would at least have had a purpose.

It's not whining about bad sportsmanship to say that. It's just a comment on the decision and a comment on the quality of England's batting. What are we supposed to say?
That's not what I'm talking about.

If you want to talk about the actual quality of play, I'm happy to do that. I agree with you that the Aussies bowled well, and England didn't bat well. I never argued that the Australians were unplayable, although they did send down a few almost unplayable deliveries over the course of the day. I also agree about Roy. He made a bad decision today, as he did in the last test. I'll talk about that sort of stuff all day, and I'm happy to discuss it even when I disagree with you.

What I was talking about, in complaining about the bad sportsmanship, is the implication (not from you, but from others) that the Aussies are bad sportsmen for their short-pitched bowling and other perceived slights. And while I'm happy to talk about issues of play, I do think that your rather tortuous rationalizations about the toss decision smack of bad sportsmanship, because you seem to be twisting yourself in self-contradictory pretzels in order to try and put the most insulting possible spin on the Australian decision to bowl. Look at this stuff:
There's another reason Root might have lied about the toss. Aus bowl first, showing that they don't rate England's batting. Well we don't rate your batting either is the message if he says they would have bowled too. If he did lie about it, that was the smart thing to do.

There's another way of looking at the decision to bowl as well, which is that Aus are a little bit scared of what Archer might do to them. Bowling first can be a sign of weakness. In this case, I don't think it was that so much, but I do think it was a bad decision, whoever wins this match.
This is a veritable dog's breakfast of contradiction. In your explanation, Australia bowled first because of hubris, to show that they don't rate England's batting and the insult the English batsmen. Or, possibly, they bowled first for the exact opposite reason, that they don't trust their own batting against Archer. So bowling first is a sign of hubris and ego, or it's a sign of weakness and lack of confidence. Either way, the Aussies look bad, right?

And, to top it all off, despite the fact that the first day probably tilted slightly towards the Australians, you still think that bowling first was a bad decision, and you will continue to think that no matter the outcome of the match itself. I guess decisions are irrelevant to outcomes, right?
 
If batsmen are simply professionals that should be able to cope with whatever comes their way, why don’t we allow beamers?
 
I got pretty sick of them back in the late '90s and early '00s, when they had a bad reputation for sledging and plenty of them acted like arseholes on a regular basis. It got to the stage where I was hoping my own national team would lose, just to bring them down a peg or two. I was also really pissed off at their cheating in South Africa last year, and was quite happy with the long suspensions handed down to Smith and the others.

I'm with you there mate. I always remember one NYs day at the SCG watching our lot to another regulation win (in those days), when I found myself wishing we'd lose this one just to shut our own fans up!

And was I disappointed and angry at them for their cheating in SA. That tarnished an awful lot of good the side did. But I do think they have been punished and now let's get down to the job in hand.

I really think this lot know has learnt a lot and calmed down. Paine I think is a good skipper, bringing some disciplin back in. In the heat of a match tempers do flair, but not just aussies'.

As to yesterday, I think we let the English score about 80 to 100 too many. Yes the batsmen also has kudos for digging themselves out of a pit, but dropped catches and bad slip posaitioning didn't help. all in all I think it was honours shared day yesterday.

Today is a new sheet, if we get 170 or so losing max 2 wickets then allowing for rain later gives us the chance to accelerate to set a winning score, or at least block out for a time killing draw! My 2c worth.
But as seen yesterday morning I don't know a lot, questioning Hazelwood in instead of Starc and bowling first!! lol! :)

ps though I think if we had Starc in for Siddle we'd knocked the English tail over quicker.

Game on!! :thumbs:
 
No, you recognize that there's the possibility of injury, but also acknowledge that he's a fucking professional athlete who should have the skills and reflexes to get out of the way. It's part of the risk of professional sport. You'll see me say exactly the same thing if the English bowlers send short deliveries at the Australian tail end tomorrow.
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Oh. So you recognise the possibility of injury. Which is obviously a completely different thing. Yeah right. And well done for the totally unnecessary use of 'fucking'.

That's not what I'm talking about.


What I was talking about, in complaining about the bad sportsmanship, is the implication (not from you, but from others) that the Aussies are bad sportsmen for their short-pitched bowling and other perceived slights. ?

From me you mean? Care to go back and find where I said that? You won't because I didn't say that. What I said was Aus are scared of Archer so they tried to hurt him.

Sorry. "Recognised the possibility of injury " You wuss.

At no point did I say this was unfair. I admitted to doing it myself. And hoped Archer would repay your 'fucking professional athletes ' in kind.

Care to misquote me anymore? It seems to be the done thing on this thread.

And if you don't want to discuss England's crap batting you are definitely in the wrong place.
 
That's not what I'm talking about.

If you want to talk about the actual quality of play, I'm happy to do that. I agree with you that the Aussies bowled well, and England didn't bat well. I never argued that the Australians were unplayable, although they did send down a few almost unplayable deliveries over the course of the day. I also agree about Roy. He made a bad decision today, as he did in the last test. I'll talk about that sort of stuff all day, and I'm happy to discuss it even when I disagree with you.

What I was talking about, in complaining about the bad sportsmanship, is the implication (not from you, but from others) that the Aussies are bad sportsmen for their short-pitched bowling and other perceived slights. And while I'm happy to talk about issues of play, I do think that your rather tortuous rationalizations about the toss decision smack of bad sportsmanship, because you seem to be twisting yourself in self-contradictory pretzels in order to try and put the most insulting possible spin on the Australian decision to bowl. Look at this stuff:This is a veritable dog's breakfast of contradiction. In your explanation, Australia bowled first because of hubris, to show that they don't rate England's batting and the insult the English batsmen. Or, possibly, they bowled first for the exact opposite reason, that they don't trust their own batting against Archer. So bowling first is a sign of hubris and ego, or it's a sign of weakness and lack of confidence. Either way, the Aussies look bad, right?

And, to top it all off, despite the fact that the first day probably tilted slightly towards the Australians, you still think that bowling first was a bad decision, and you will continue to think that no matter the outcome of the match itself. I guess decisions are irrelevant to outcomes, right?
No not irrelevant but even if Aus win that won't change the information available to them at the toss. On that information, which includes the outcomes of all previous tests, I think they made the wrong decision. Batting first is statistically significant to the outcome - it roughly doubles your chance of winning in recent years. Add to that the weather yesterday and the forecast for today, and the history at Lord's in different weather conditions. Plus the colour of the pitch - it wasn't a blatant greentop. Plus the Lord's drainage system, which negated a lot of what happened on day one. This isn't a partisan thing. I'd be saying the same if Root had bowled first.

Too early to say towards whom yesterday tilted btw. Aus need to bat two sessions before we can say that. Bit cloudy this morning, as per the forecast. ;)
 
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Could be a big morning here. England's batting might be terrible but the bowlers are still very capable of ripping through a team in favourable conditions and Australia's batting isn't the strongest either. Apart from Steve Smith...
 
I have to say that based purely on my observations of historic results, it would take something really exceptional to stop me batting first. To do anything else seems to me a text book example of the base rate fallacy.
 
Definitely. I expect England to bowl well this morning. Aus are going to need some luck - to miss the good ones, basically. Will England get their lengths right? Too short and the good ones may just fly past the edge.
 
I have to say that based purely on my observations of historic results, it would take something really exceptional to stop me batting first. To do anything else seems to me a text book example of the base rate fallacy.
Yep. Batting first has to be the default unless there are compelling reasons not to, such as, for instance, today's weather yesterday and yesterday's weather forecast for today.
 
Get Woakes on sharpish. No problem with starting with Archer, but they need to act quickly here if stuff doesn't happen. Could even be the conditions for Stokes.
 
This is funny, I think so anyway, from the BBC site ....

kid you not. Jofra's watch is so big, it's giving off a reflection of the floodlights.

Well Woakes is on now, if we can last till lunch I'll be happy as! :)
 
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