The American mass shooting thread

[catinthehat]

Are soldiers mentally ill?

Many of them appear to become so post combat - perhaps when they are out of the deindividuated groupthink that they are trained into and can reflect back on situations that they were involved in with a critical eye. The dehumanisation of the 'enemy' in a military context could be a similar process experienced by individuals who are isolated or shunned by mainstream groups - 'loner' individuals appear to crop up repeatedly in this type of crime. The presence of a mental health problem might be less important than the way it was treated and the social reaction to it. General comment - in the absence of facts.

 

[Spymaster]

Emotional intimidation all round. NRA types make the same accusation of those who raise gun control. Accusing them of cynically politicising a tragedy. Those in favour of gun control make the same accusation of people like Phil who are bold enough to defend the second amendment. You make the same accusation of people like me or Michael Moore who point to the tendency of a society built on Empire and massive violence to breed violence domestically.

I remember watching "bowling for Columbine" (which presents a brilliant and elequent case for the kind of internalising of violence that I was pointing out) when Moore links the violence of columbine with the fact that Littleton produces weapons of mass destruction. He was faced with the same kind of emotional intimidation too. Just to recall Moores point




Really, this idea that we should not ask obvious and important questions following a national tragedy does the victims of such tragedies no favours and is nothing but a pathetic form of emotional bullying. You should know better

Emotional intimidation my arse. And interesting your choice of arch-bullshitter and fantasist, Michael Moore to illustrate your point.

It was your first sentence that I took exception to:

Perhaps we shouldn't be surprised that a society that routinely murders children as part of its foreign policy, breeds lunatics who murder children at home.

Cheap, nasty, and totally unsupportable.

 

[dylans]

Emotional intimidation my arse. And interesting your choice of arch-bullshitter and fantasist, Michael Moore to illustrate your point.

It was your first sentence that I took exception to:



Cheap, nasty, and totally unsupportable.

Completely true, factual and demonstrable.

 

[Manter]

Many of them appear to become so post combat - perhaps when they are out of the deindividuated groupthink that they are trained into and can reflect back on situations that they were involved in with a critical eye. The dehumanisation of the 'enemy' in a military context could be a similar process experienced by individuals who are isolated or shunned by mainstream groups - 'loner' individuals appear to crop up repeatedly in this type of crime. The presence of a mental health problem might be less important than the way it was treated and the social reaction to it. General comment - in the absence of facts.

There was an article in Newsweek last week about guilt being part of PTSD. So sane soldiers appear to be sent insane by what they have had to do or see

 

[Spymaster]

Completely true, factual and demonstrable.

Crap.

Can't decide whether or not to get stuck into you over this but tbh, I'm watching the football and looking forward to a chilled out Sunday.

 

[catinthehat]

There was an article in Newsweek last week about guilt being part of PTSD. So sane soldiers appear to be sent insane by what they have had to do or see

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57494963/u.s-military-suicide-rate-doubles-for-july and very high suicide rates for active soldiers.

 

[Blagsta]

I think it's situational. Activities that become normalized during wartime often aren't acceptable during peacetime. Even then there can be differences. WW2 vets, although many were traumatized etc, in general came away from that war in a different condition and frame of mind when compared to Vietnam vets, where there wasn't widespread acceptance of and approval for their actions.

We might be coming to the same conclusions from different perspectives. Imo, a propensity to violence is part of the human motivational repertoire. I believe that our society's attempt to deny that fact is wrongheaded, just as it's wrongheaded to try to ignore the human sexual impulse. I'm not saying that it should be ok for people to kill in order to work off some steam; but that cathartic activities should be recognized to have utility in channelling that violent impulse away from being acted out in daily life. I think the Japanese have a better understanding of this than we do.

Getting back to your point: yes, it's possible for otherwise mentally 'normal' people to kill, but depending on the circumstances, certain types of killing will more often be within the province of the mentally or emotionally unbalanced.

I guess what I'm trying to say, and I'm thinking aloud really, is that its all situational. I think notions of mental health and mental illness are often very individualised, they locate the problem solely in the individual. I guess what I'm wondering about is wider social forces that may contribute to these events and whether the focus solely on the perpetrators mental health detracts from thinking about wider social stuff.

 

[Blagsta]

Your posts on this thread had been ok up to this one.

Do you really think that a thread about the massacre of 20 odd kids is the place to be pushing your anti-US agenda, no matter how tenuously you try to link it up?

Shame.

This is the kind of thing i mean.

 

[Spymaster]

This is the kind of thing i mean.

Eh?

I'm not saying that the wider social issues shouldn't be examined. Just that this isn't the thread to be looking for cheap point scoring. An obvious response to Dylans suggestion regarding US foreign policy/murdering children etc., is to seek to draw parallels with the countless murders of children by islamist actions and unrelated shootings in those countries. Then the thread'll be a mess.

Frogwoman's started a better thread for that. http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...ol-the-only-explanation.303623/#post-11799192

 

[Blagsta]

Yes and I'd agree that Islamist violence is as a result of wider social forces.

 

[redsquirrel]

Cheap, nasty, and totally unsupportable.

How is unsupportable?

Even the most cursory glance at the evidence shows that it is true.

 

[Spymaster]

How is unsupportable?

Doesn't the UK "routinely murder children" as part of their support of US foreign policy?

Why aren't we "breeding lunatics who murder children at home"?

Have brought this up on the other thread, btw.

 

[redsquirrel]

Sorry I thought you were simply denying that the USA murders children, rather than any link between killings such as these and the US government policies.

 

[Corax]

Switzerland maybe?

Here's a table of gun ownership. Scary stuff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

Some of that looks hugely inaccurate to me. A couple of places I have some knowledge of leap out at me as being far too low in the table - Albania being the most striking, but Greece also looks a massive underestimate. I'm guessing the table is based on legal gun ownership, and that's where the discrepancies arise.

 

[weltweit]

The guy in this instance may well have had other mental issues but I really dislike the way the media is focussing on the fact he had Asperger's. Great, now anyone with Asperger's is tainted by association, despite the fact that there is no evidence to show that they are any more violent or unpredictable than anyone else in the general population. Quite the opposite in reality as they are often obsessive about rule-following and order. Yes they may be more prone to outbursts or getting upset over 'trivial' things but it doesn't manifest itself as violence to others any more than in someone who doesn't have Asperger's.

I hadn't heard that he apparently had aspergers, is there any basis of truth in this? Anyhow aspergers is not known for violence, rather more for potential social exclusion.

 

[toggle]

The guy in this instance may well have had other mental issues but I really dislike the way the media is focussing on the fact he had Asperger's. Great, now anyone with Asperger's is tainted by association, despite the fact that there is no evidence to show that they are any more violent or unpredictable than anyone else in the general population. Quite the opposite in reality as they are often obsessive about rule-following and order. Yes they may be more prone to outbursts or getting upset over 'trivial' things but it doesn't manifest itself as violence to others any more than in someone who doesn't have Asperger's.

my first thought on hearing this was to ask what could drive someone to do this. in terms of how much were they bullied for being aspie, and did they lack any kind of support elsewhere that would have let them deal with this emotionally. and also that the media focus on aspergers will have a hugely negative effect on anyone diagnosed with that condition, it will make any bullying problems worse.

 

[Yossarian]

who point to the tendency of a society built on Empire and massive violence to breed violence domestically.

Did you make the same point about Britain after Dunblane?

 

[Buckaroo]

Can't see anything in media claiming he was diagnosed with anything, ever, just annecdotal pop psychology 'former classmates say he might have been Aspergers'. Also other familiar stuff, 'goth loner', trench coat, wore a lot of black, parents divorce etc getting bandied about. One thing seems inconsistent, he was in a technology group, meeting up and playing games (so obviously not a complete loner) but no facebook etc and minimal on line footprint. It's all a complete mystery...Oh and mammy was a doomsday prepper, tooled up to the nines, getting ready for a showdown at the end of times.

 

[frogwoman]

I'm not convinced by the aspergers' explanation tbh.

 

[toggle]

I'm not convinced by the aspergers' explanation tbh.

i'm not anywhere close to being convinced that aspergers is a cause of this, but the bullying that some aspies face could easily be. especially if someone does not have a safe space to go to, getting away from the bullying. I know what bakunin faced at school for being different, and i dread to think what he would ahve turned out as if he didn't have a safe stable homelife and parents who never judged him for being different.

 

[spring-peeper]

I'm not convinced by the aspergers' explanation tbh.

From what I've read on here, I would have thought aspergers was a get-out-of-free card.

 

[Ax^]

 

[toggle]

From what I've read on here, I would have thought aspergers was a get-out-of-free card.

you want to explain that?

 

[teqniq]

The BBC have just wheeled out Jack Straw on R6 news for his opinion on the gun lobby in the States. Whilst the fuck who was involved in the rendition of Sami al Saadi and his family to Libya had some relevant things to say I cannot but help think this is some effort to show him in a caring light. Pass the sick-bucket.

 

[spring-peeper]

Threads about Gary McKinnon and how he is not responsible for his actions.

it makes no never mind.

 

[toggle]

Threads about Gary McKinnon and how he is not responsible for his actions.

it makes no never mind.

is that supposed to be an explanation?

 

[Citizen66]

I remember many arguing the opposite. He was stupid, but not quite as stupid as the US's pathetic level of security which he easily breached.

 

[spring-peeper]

I remember many arguing the opposite. He was stupid, but not quite as stupid as the US's pathetic level of security which he easily breached.

I don't remember that - I remember being the only one who claimed that - and being constantly attacked because I couldn't accept that he was not to be held responsible due to his affliction.

Anyway - end of derail

 

[toggle]

I remember many arguing the opposite. He was stupid, but not quite as stupid as the US's pathetic level of security which he easily breached.

nods. i think that his aspergers was not used as an excuse, but more as part of the evidence that he was not intending to do any damage.but the way in which some reports in the media presented him as a complete idiot did concern me at the time.

 

[Citizen66]

I don't remember that - I remember being the only one who claimed that - and being constantly attacked because I couldn't accept that he was not to be held responsible due to his affliction.

Anyway - end of derail

The argument was 60 years + in a US Supermax for the heinous act of delivering egg to the US' security services faces was disproportionately harsh for someone with his condition. Not that he should completely evade justice (which he has, in case you're interested. Although having that hanging over you for ten years is punishment enough in my view).