The 2019 General Election

[Serge Forward]

I think the Guardian needs to do some fact checking before they quote BF's press releases Seriously, i doubt they have 70 members never mind 7000.

Depends on their definition of 'member' as they might be including anyone who's ever 'liked' their shit on t'internet.

 

[existentialist]

How am I a bot oh detective bot expert?

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

It's funny to plenty of people, just not you. Humour is subjective.

It’s just that it’s funny to the sort of people that wind up being mates with people like Weev.

I wouldn't bother responding to Marty1 because he really is a right wing troll cunt. This thread has all gone a bit weird as it seems Count Cuckula has wound people up because of their name on here rather than their actual comments. Urban though, innit

But they called it! See CD’s latest output. How predictable these edgelords* are eh.


*unlike the rest of the chess club I know all the latest internet terminology

 

[kenny g]

Is it your sixth form anarchist graffiti club? If not which one?

If so it would show a probable 100% rise in effective @ action in the UK.

 

[ska invita]

E only includes pensioners reliant solely on state pension - if they have workplace/private pension provision as well they are categorised on previous occupation - so the DE breakdown is very depressing.

C2 isn't just trades tbf and overall income levels do correspond broadly with social grades

Going back to this topic for a second, this sounds about right for trades wages - basically getting on for 50k ,and more if your own business id expect. And this is classed as C2 right?

• A plumbers salary after building a reputation is around £46-48,675+. Plumbers can be some of the most well-paid trade professions along with electricians, especially considering the extensive skills and the stomach for the role
• The average electricians salary is around £47,265 especially once you’re gained solid experience in tackling the most common electrical faults
• A typical roofers salary in the UK is around £42,303, and even more, if you work with heat
• A bricklayers salary can surpass the average £42,034 for an experienced and savvy individual
• Carpenters and joiners also take home a meaty £41,413

 

[maomao]

A bricklayers salary can surpass the average £42,034 for an experienced and savvy individual

I shouldn't have sold all my tools to buy drugs lol. That's more than I make now.

Or perhaps I should have taken my vertigo into account before learning to be a brickie in the first place. Could never work above the first floor. Only ever built garden walls.

 

[campanula]

I shouldn't have sold all my tools to buy drugs lol. That's more than I make now.

Or perhaps I should have taken my vertigo into account before learning to be a brickie in the first place. Could never work above the first floor. Only ever built garden walls.

Thought you could have reached the eaves just by standing on tiptoe. I have no problem with heights as long as I can keep a hand on a rail/rung/ or windowsill. Balancing on a scaff board is a different matter altogether.

 

[ska invita]

I shouldn't have sold all my tools to buy drugs lol. That's more than I make now.

yeah and that's my point about (tory voting, property owning) C2s - there's good money out there. First hour call out charge is creeping up to £200 in some sectors IME.

 

[maomao]

Thought you could have reached the eaves just by standing on tiptoe.

Not quite. I could build a seven foot wall without standing on anything though.

 

[two sheds]

Could you then put a floor in and build another seven foot wall from the inside? It was a misconceived day when anyone thought they needed more than fourteen foot walls.

 

[maomao]

Could you then put a floor in and build another seven foot wall from the inside? It was a misconceived day when anyone thought they needed more than fourteen foot walls.

Never thought of that. I'll get started on the tower of babel tomorrow.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Going back to this topic for a second, this sounds about right for trades wages - basically getting on for 50k ,and more if your own business id expect. And this is classed as C2 right?

• A plumbers salary after building a reputation is around £46-48,675+. Plumbers can be some of the most well-paid trade professions along with electricians, especially considering the extensive skills and the stomach for the role
• The average electricians salary is around £47,265 especially once you’re gained solid experience in tackling the most common electrical faults
• A typical roofers salary in the UK is around £42,303, and even more, if you work with heat
• A bricklayers salary can surpass the average £42,034 for an experienced and savvy individual
• Carpenters and joiners also take home a meaty £41,413

Problem with this like with lots of jobs is that they take a huge variety and median it so you get the people running firms employing people alongside the people they employ. I know lots of people with trades and some are doing very well, more aren't. I know one couple, he's a painter and decorator, typically very much considered at the scuzzy end of trade if trade at all and they are fucking wedged (also he's a twat but she's alright) but then running a firm and employing people does that doesn't it.

Dunno whether the business owners are in C2 either tbf, the sole traders with employees maybe, not the company directors I don't think though

 

[Riklet]

64. Keep the Faith: Election Debrief

Play 64. Keep the Faith: Election Debrief by Desolation Radio on desktop and mobile. Play over 320 million tracks for free on SoundCloud.

m.soundcloud.com

Some interesting analysis from Desolation Radio which I've only just got round to listening to.

Only cringe cringe bit is Dan saying Chris Williams did nothing wrong. Oh lolipop.

 

[ska invita]

I use "hobbyist" from time to time. And I don't exclude myself from the term when it fits.

It, for me, is pretty straightforward.

People for whom the Left fulfils the same role in their life as any other hobby

It provides things to do, some sort of social life, an element of identity and so on.

regarding "hobbyists", there's a new book out

Left for Itself, A from Zer0 Books

In the first full length analysis of the rise of left-wing hobbyists, performative radicals and the 'Identity Left', A Left for Itself interrogates...

www.johnhuntpublishing.com

David Aaranovitch is a fan.
A friend has read it. She says its got a lot of rose-tinted view of the past about it (though the author doesn't seem that old).
Having only been alive so long I wonder how much things have really changed. Materially and structurally they have obviously, but other than that...

 

[chilango]

regarding "hobbyists", there's a new book out

Left for Itself, A from Zer0 Books

In the first full length analysis of the rise of left-wing hobbyists, performative radicals and the 'Identity Left', A Left for Itself interrogates...

www.johnhuntpublishing.com

View attachment 196637
David Aaranovitch is a fan.
A friend has read it. She says its got a lot of rose-tinted view of the past about it (though the author doesn't seem that old).
Having only been alive so long I wonder how much things have really changed. Materially and structurally they have obviously, but other than that...

Could be interesting. I'll keep an eye out for that.

I'd argue it's far from a new phenomenon though.

 

[ska invita]

Could be interesting. I'll keep an eye out for that.

I'd argue it's far from a new phenomenon though.

Yeah and the things that have changed are more complex - and i'm weary that there's a "blame young people" for it all, attitude to the book. Still I'm sure the arguments isn't as simple as that. Worth a peak

 

[Serge Forward]

regarding "hobbyists", there's a new book out

Left for Itself, A from Zer0 Books

In the first full length analysis of the rise of left-wing hobbyists, performative radicals and the 'Identity Left', A Left for Itself interrogates...

www.johnhuntpublishing.com

View attachment 196637
David Aaranovitch is a fan.
A friend has read it. She says its got a lot of rose-tinted view of the past about it (though the author doesn't seem that old).
Having only been alive so long I wonder how much things have really changed. Materially and structurally they have obviously, but other than that...

Is the opposite to 'hobbyist' a 'professional revolutionary'?

 

[eoin_k]

Is the opposite to 'hobbyist' a 'professional revolutionary'?

Might be more professional than revolutionary given the enthusiastic reception from Stephen Kinnock, Progress and the Fabians.

 

[brogdale]

Might be more professional than revolutionary given the enthusiastic reception fromantic Stephen Kinnock, Progress and the Fabians.

Professional cunts

 

[BristolEcho]

Yeah and the things that have changed are more complex - and i'm weary that there's a "blame young people" for it all, attitude to the book. Still I'm sure the arguments isn't as simple as that. Worth a peak

Does it have to be against young people? I think the rise of some groups that are more tasteful to the middle left that are also of attracting people of an older age such as with XR. There is also a bit of an erasure that goes on of past actions that have been successful all be it on small scales.

 

[treelover]

Could be interesting. I'll keep an eye out for that.

I'd argue it's far from a new phenomenon though.

Didn't Orwell write about similar issues?

btw, is it global, US, UK focused?

 

[treelover]

His central conceit is that the left since the 80’s has been taken over by ‘hobbyists’: people whose political commitments are more a matter of their identity and sense of meaning than a serious desire to change the world. It brings to mind Nick Cohen’s observations that some of the richest people he knows have shelves full of books by Chomsky - the explanation being that Chomsky’s simplistic, academic “The US/Capitalism is evil” analysis is no threat to these people, as it lacks any sort of a positive program for change that might harm their interests. As Cohen sees it, having Chomsky’s books on their shelves is a status symbol for a certain type of person - proof that they are wise and interesting enough not to be duped, but unencumbered by the dreary compromises that would be involved in doing anything about it.

Left for Itself, A

In the first full length analysis of the rise of left-w…

www.goodreads.com

from a review, but I agree some seriousy wealthy people in my CLP, but they fought hard to win, and would have maybe lost out personally, etc. he is absolutely right about the lack of urgency though, UC is not affecting the former.

 

[eoin_k]

Didn't Orwell write about similar issues?

[...]

Was that before or after the old Etonian wrote his travel guides to European dosshouses?

 

[brogdale]

A thread containing some statistical/demographic observations about the 2019 GE tory gains ("Blue wall" ) from the Resolution Foundation:



Seems quite reductive, and basically posits the 'left behind' nature of the seats as a deficiency of "demographic dynamism".
Hmmm

 

[Smokeandsteam]

A thread containing some statistical/demographic observations about the 2019 GE tory gains ("Blue wall" ) from the Resolution Foundation:



Seems quite reductive, and basically posits the 'left behind' nature of the seats as a deficiency of "demographic dynamism".
Hmmm

Some of this is really interesting:

1. Unlike the suggestion explicitly made, and endlessly repeated as fact by some on the left, this demonstrates that young people are not leaving towns - they are trapped there and not off (with their assumed labour votes) to the cities. So much for the old gammon voting for Brexit or nativist narratives of the middle class left.

2. There is no drain of talent to the cities for work either. These young people are not working in cities.

These two points alone seem to shatter the basis of the analysis by Mason, Novara and others.

3. There is a greater reliance on benefits of all kinds in these areas suggesting a convergence of no work/precarious work/low pay work.

4. There remains an absence of one key factor in this report - and others - the voices of the people living in these areas.

 

[The39thStep]

A thread containing some statistical/demographic observations about the 2019 GE tory gains ("Blue wall" ) from the Resolution Foundation:



Seems quite reductive, and basically posits the 'left behind' nature of the seats as a deficiency of "demographic dynamism".
Hmmm

Didn’t see post above .
My knowledge of some of these places is that industry has gone or declined, churn is small so few new people/few new startups , people stay , have family/ community ties perhaps property and due to appalling public transport compete over low pay retail type jobs in local diminishing high streets . Last time I was up that way I was shocked at cost of public transport to go out on a night out and for many even travelling to sign on is a prohibitive cost. Basically it means people may like living there but they are are stuck in Groundhog Day . .

 

[brogdale]

Some of this is really interesting:

1. Unlike the suggestion made by some of the narratives this demonstrates that young people are not leaving towns - they are trapped there and not off (with their labour votes) to the cities. So much for the old gammon voting for Brexit or nativist narratives of the middle class left.

2. There is no drain of talent to the cities for work either. These young people are not working in cities.

These two points alone seem to shatter the basis of the analysis by Mason, Novara and others.

3. There is a greater reliance on benefits of all kinds in these areas suggesting a convergence of no work/precarious work/low pay work.

4. There remains an absence of one key factor in this report - and others - the voices of the people living in these areas.

Agree with all that interpretation and tbf to the liberals who wrote the report...they did at least have the good grace to say this in the last part:


The trouble with all the mean stats 'proving' how unexceptional these constituencies might be is that they can obviously disguise large differences within constituencies and don't begin to address how or why folk feel 'left behind'.

 

[imposs1904]

regarding "hobbyists", there's a new book out

Left for Itself, A from Zer0 Books

In the first full length analysis of the rise of left-wing hobbyists, performative radicals and the 'Identity Left', A Left for Itself interrogates...

www.johnhuntpublishing.com

View attachment 196637
David Aaranovitch is a fan.
A friend has read it. She says its got a lot of rose-tinted view of the past about it (though the author doesn't seem that old).
Having only been alive so long I wonder how much things have really changed. Materially and structurally they have obviously, but other than that...

It's probably just me but I think it's funny that a book on left-wing hobbyists has been published by the premier left-wing vanity publishing company.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Agree with all that interpretation and tbf to the liberals who wrote the report...they did at least have the good grace to say this in the last part:

View attachment 198314
The trouble with all the mean stats 'proving' how unexceptional these constituencies might be is that they can obviously disguise large differences within constituencies and don't begin to address how or why folk feel 'left behind'.

I agree. I also agree with Steps point above.

The value of the report is that it explodes the attempt by some on the left to explain the failure of labour as one of mere demographics. Under this analysis there are young people who are progressive and there are racist/nativist pensioners.

Key to cobbling this cobblers together was the suggestion that young people had fled the deindustrialised towns leaving only the latter there who booted Labour out

The report indicates that a much more complex and nuanced understanding is required.

It also suggests - again - the primacy of a specific class experience as the key marker.

By that I mean that there is no one working class experience, but there is a very specific and large scale one based on industrial decline in specific parts of England and Wales.

 

[ska invita]

Some of this is really interesting:

1. Unlike the suggestion explicitly made, and endlessly repeated as fact by some on the left, this demonstrates that young people are not leaving towns - they are trapped there and not off (with their assumed labour votes) to the cities. So much for the old gammon voting for Brexit or nativist narratives of the middle class left.

2. There is no drain of talent to the cities for work either. These young people are not working in cities.

These two points alone seem to shatter the basis of the analysis by Mason, Novara and others.

3. There is a greater reliance on benefits of all kinds in these areas suggesting a convergence of no work/precarious work/low pay work.

4. There remains an absence of one key factor in this report - and others - the voices of the people living in these areas.

At a glance some of that is You Can Prove Anything With Stats. I'm not saying it's all nonsense but the crucial stats for points 1 and 2 are the demographic breakdown of those areas. Age and income particularly, not averages

I'm on lunch so not about to go looking for more stats.

Also "It's also not true that Blue Wall residents are all being forced to commute to big cities nearby for work - in fact they are less likely to leave their local authority for work and have the shortest commutes (24 minutes)." Is a bit straw man. The only comment on this I heard is that as well as the more expected static population there are growing numbers of wealthier country home owning car owning commuters. The stats offered here don't shine any light on that phenomenon either way.